A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#141

Post by KirinDave » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 9:21 PM UTC

patrickg_zill wrote: post #137

gizmo wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. There is no clear evidence that illegal immigration has a meaningful influence on wages. Undocumented people mostly do jobs Americans refuse to do. For the past 30 years wages haven't kept up with productivity growth, I'm sure you've seen the charts. Meanwhile expenses for housing, education and healthcare have exploded. Framing immigration as the primary cause of economic stagnation is wrong, because it is a mino…

1. If H1Bs are shown to have depressed wages of computer programmers etc., why would it not be logical to expect illegals to depress wages? If there were 12 million fewer people in the USA (the laughably low "official" number of illegals in the country), would demand for housing be less? Demand for doctors and related health care? Even former Secretary of Labor under Bill Clinton, Robert Reich, in TV interviews, admi…

1. How would you separate that effect from the well-documented and systemic collusion to depress.wages and reduce employee turnover that already affects our industry?

As for the count, do you have some reasources that aren't secretly written by daily stormer folks?

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#142

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

badsock wrote: post #87

LyndsySimon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservative views are treated as extreme, even though they are not and that's the point. /pol/ exists largely as a reaction to the suppression of non-progressive thought in the places where the demographic spends most of their time: academia, gaming, and tech. There are certainly people who believe what they say on /pol/, but the vast majority of them are consciously acting as a parody of what they have been cast to…

What makes you say that American conservative views are not extreme, in the context of the global internet?

I'm not sure what the "context of the global internet" has to do with my comment.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#143

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:14 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #77

LyndsySimon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservative views are treated as extreme, even though they are not and that's the point. /pol/ exists largely as a reaction to the suppression of non-progressive thought in the places where the demographic spends most of their time: academia, gaming, and tech. There are certainly people who believe what they say on /pol/, but the vast majority of them are consciously acting as a parody of what they have been cast to…

Conservative views are treated as extreme, even though they are not Do you mean without regard to whether they are extreme or not or are you saying that no conservative views are extreme?

Well, I've not really tried to define the term so explicitly, but I think it's fair to say that any position that is held by a majority of Republicans (or Democrats) is not extreme, because it would by definition not be outside the norm.

For example, public opinion in support of same-sex marriage in the US is currently at an all-time high of 64%, with 34% opposing. Being opposed to same-sex marriage is not an extreme position, as it is one that is shared by 1/3 of Americans. Only two years ago it was 42:40 in support. Therefore, the position statement "I believe that marriage should only be between a man and a woman" is not extreme.

The bottom line is that many views that are strongly associated with conservativism are likely to result in personal attacks if expressed in the aforementioned settings.

Just look at the flak Peter Thiel has gotten for supporting Trump. Why does donating to a major party's presidential campaign result in things like this [1]?

1: https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/17/13307112/peter-thiel-tru...

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#144

Post by Eleopteryx » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:17 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #75

badsock wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something that's popular is practically by definition not on the extreme any more. In most of the developed world the Democrats would be considered a moderate right-wing party, and the Republicans a far-right theocratic extremism party (like, say the DUP in the UK, or CHP in Canada). What you're seeing is a ground-shift in values, and what used to be considered OK is now considered extreme, and is therefore being shi…

Conservative views are treated as extreme, even though they are not and that's the point. /pol/ exists largely as a reaction to the suppression of non-progressive thought in the places where the demographic spends most of their time: academia, gaming, and tech. There are certainly people who believe what they say on /pol/, but the vast majority of them are consciously acting as a parody of what they have been cast to…

>There are certainly people who believe what they say on /pol/, but the vast majority of them are consciously acting as a parody of what they have been cast to be.

What leads you to believe this?

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#145

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:20 PM UTC

yyytt wrote: post #84

LyndsySimon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservative views are treated as extreme, even though they are not and that's the point. /pol/ exists largely as a reaction to the suppression of non-progressive thought in the places where the demographic spends most of their time: academia, gaming, and tech. There are certainly people who believe what they say on /pol/, but the vast majority of them are consciously acting as a parody of what they have been cast to…

> /pol/ exists largely as a reaction to the suppression of non-progressive thought /pol/ exists so edgy teenagers (and others who haven't developed mentally past that phase) can attempt to get a rise out of people by posting shallow, far-right tripe. The level of intelligent discussion there is pitiful.

I parse your comment to mean "/pol/ is childish. People who hold those views are shallow and unintelligent."

I find it interesting that my posting discussing /pol/ - not supporting it, mind you, merely discussing it - elicits a response like this from a brand new account.

My position is that exactly this sort of response to anything that isn't "progressive" is what has caused the rise of /pol/.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#146

Post by Eleopteryx » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:27 PM UTC

Kec71 wrote: post #131

eru wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed.

You will never get citation for that. I've been following those two communities for last three months before election happened (and few months after) and what I can state is onyl empirical. The things they do are amazing. More than 25k+ people working 24/7 to elect Trump is big influence. Note that they were all unpaid and did it by their free will. They even had paid members from opposition (ShariaBlue) to influence…

I was following /pol/ since Trump's campaign started, back when I was certain he was just a sideshow distraction. Donald Trump's twitter account even winked at /pol/ at one point by tweeting what a 4chan poster asked, as well as copying their meme images. There was and is a very close connection there. It would be difficult to quantify the notion that the absence of /pol/ would have lost Trump the election, but I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#147

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

Eleopteryx wrote: post #144

LyndsySimon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservative views are treated as extreme, even though they are not and that's the point. /pol/ exists largely as a reaction to the suppression of non-progressive thought in the places where the demographic spends most of their time: academia, gaming, and tech. There are certainly people who believe what they say on /pol/, but the vast majority of them are consciously acting as a parody of what they have been cast to…

>There are certainly people who believe what they say on /pol/, but the vast majority of them are consciously acting as a parody of what they have been cast to be. What leads you to believe this?

I'm relying only on personal experience. I know several people in real life that are "shitlords" online. They're doing it not because they believe the things they post, but because they've found it to be an effective way to shift the narrative and to throw their political opponents off-balance.

Likewise, I know a few people in real life that actually hold those extreme and (frankly) bigoted beliefs. As far as I know they haven't really changed their online behavior, and they're not part of that in-group.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#148

Post by maxerickson » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:40 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #143

maxerickson wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conservative views are treated as extreme, even though they are not Do you mean without regard to whether they are extreme or not or are you saying that no conservative views are extreme?

Well, I've not really tried to define the term so explicitly, but I think it's fair to say that any position that is held by a majority of Republicans (or Democrats) is not extreme, because it would by definition not be outside the norm. For example, public opinion in support of same-sex marriage in the US is currently at an all-time high of 64%, with 34% opposing. Being opposed to same-sex marriage is not an extreme…

So can you do the ground work and show that a position like opposition to same sex marriage is actually frequently and casually labeled as extreme?

(I can think of lots of other invectives that people apply to it, I'm just not sure that it particularly gets treated as a non mainstream view...)

I also disagree with the point in principle. We even have a word for it when a majority gets on the wrong side of rational (and goes to extremes), a mob.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#149

Post by LyndsySimon » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:43 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #10

fiblye wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one important question to ask here is: what caused the huge shift? Because it's something I noticed as well. Something happened that has pushed much of the general internet and large swathes of the "geekier" parts of the net to the right, and it doesn't seem to be letting up. The media ran with the "Russian shills" thing for a while, but it seems to be running out of steam and people I've known for years who…

>I think one important question to ask here is: what caused the huge shift? Because it's something I noticed as well. It was 8 years of a Democratic, fairly liberal president. People like to rebel against whatever is in fashion. The right wing is now "edgy" because it rails against the prevailing political power The generation of kids who are now posting on 4chan grew up in a world defined by the Fox News anti-Obama…

> It was 8 years of a Democratic, fairly liberal president. People like to rebel against whatever is in fashion. The right wing is now "edgy" because it rails against the prevailing political power

I'm 33. From my perspective, the GOP has been steadily gaining power my entire adult life. Obama's election in 2012 seemed mostly a result of the GOP choosing a fairly lame candidate and Obama's own personal charisma.

I'm not sure it makes sense to "rebel against" the faction that has held the House for only 4 of the last 22 years.

Re: A Study of 4chan’s Politically Incorrect Forum and Its Effects on the Web [pdf]

#150

Post by akhilcacharya » Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 10:47 PM UTC

LyndsySimon wrote: post #86

slang800 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're conflating causation - GamerGate was an expression of /pol/ culture, not the cause of it. I'm sure that the fact that the event made news spread that culture, but ultimately the ideas didn't change.

I disagree. GamerGate was the cause for the rise of right-wing social media power. Milo wasn't know outside those circles until after the controversy got the mainstream consciousness, and now he's a staple on all of the right-wing sites I frequent. The idea that the largest gun forum on the internet would be regularly discussing posts by Milo and Gavin McInness would have been laughable before GamerGate. "Based Stick…

>It's now rebellious and cool to want to marry and start a traditional family.

Uh.. what?

I've never actually seen family values being part of the discussion given most GG adherents trend teenage or older unmarried on KiA (the target male demos of video games).