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Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

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Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#141

Post by eklavya »

devnonymous wrote: post #121
eklavya wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Income Tax department can do the dedup themselves right? Seems easy, no different pan cards can have the same aadhar number? Income tax records are protected by very strict laws already.

...they could but are they doing it ? Do you know whom to ask ? Do you know whether you even have the right to ask these questions and get an answer ? ...and if you get the answer that they are not doing it and instead a private entity will handle it, will you have a choice to not link your PAN card to Aadhaar ?

If I can't believe that they are following the law, my data is already public. I remember there was a debate sometime back where income tax info was needed to decide whether you qualify for certain subsidies or not and there was no way to get the income tax data even for the govt (different dept).

Income tax aadhar linkage should not be optional in the same way paying taxes isn't (in my opinion). I mean only 10-2000000 above with more than 1000000 rs income (declared). That's just disgusting.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#142

Post by realonedev »

bpodgursky wrote: post #39
devnonymous wrote: post #29

Edit: I don't care about karma on HN but if you're downvoting please explain yourself. > The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need > them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats. Citation ? (not about the corruption happening, that has been well established, but about aadhaar allegedly solving this problem). > Having a real identification gives very poor individuals t…

I'm not Indian, I'm a white middle class American.

I will give you a free advice:

Most Aadhar criticism comes from and is supported by

People who have lost money due to due to direct benefit scheme.

Those people accumulated lots of money over years by producing fake bills, extra names in the ration cards.

Aadhar card started to roll out in 2011 itself, How many of these privacy freaks had raise the voice and if they did, were they supported ?

No.

Only after Aadhar started saving money for the poor, hence the money started drying out of pockets of those corrupt officials and contractors, does this activism against Aadhar has been supported.

Who are those people who were OK with Aadhar for 4 years, but are not OK now?

Now that Aadhar will be used for some more direct to benefit transfer scmehes, will you see more activists and more noise.

Think.

I will give you a hint.

How do you think does a 9 to 5 government employee is able to accommodate wealth to send his son to one of ivy leavgue schools or enroll him in a music class or send him to costly coaching classes or send him to top schools.

Where did that money came form?

Won't those sons oppose Aadhar whose dads tool bribe to accumulate wealth to make sure the son gets educated/skilled.

A lot of people thrive and plan their yearly budget based on bribe amount not salary amount?

Would not those people oppose Aadhar?

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#143

Post by realonedev »

splintercell wrote: post #138
realonedev wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I can guess their religion with nearly 95% accuracy. 95% of the stats are made on the spot, like you made above. Your intuitions don't need to be true. And, Godhra Train was burned by 2000 Muslims surrounding a train and burning people with nothing to escape. Next time before mentioning Godhra and Muslims in same sentence don't forget to mention what 2000 Muslims did to unarmed people in train by locking the train…

> And, Godhra Train was burned by 2000 Muslims surrounding a train and burning people with nothing to escape. > Next time before mentioning Godhra and Muslims in same sentence don't forget to mention what 2000 Muslims did to unarmed people in train by locking the train compartment. None of these things matter. Lets say that 10 people committed a crime in broad daylight in front of hundreds of people, then they hid in…

You are unable to back up your claims by verifiable data source and quantifiable data points.

Can you get the caste of a person by reading the Aadhar number ?

Answer is No.

If you or your relatives had not lost bribe money due to the Direct Benefit scheme, then I cannot understand the blatant hate of Aadhar.

Otherwise, I hope that neither you nor your immediate family members were accumulating wealth by being corrupt or being the actual middleman themselves.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#144

Post by abhishivsaxena »

thisisit wrote: post #139
abhishivsaxena wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, lets talk about privacy. Fine there is a new card. Why do they need iris scans and finger prints? What is the need? That too in a government infrastructure which is surely not protecting it properly - http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDA... . For the same reason a bank requires your signature. To authenticate you. But in India because we still have some illiteracy signatures won't do…

Wow are you for real? The amount of passive aggressive-ness in the post is through the roof. I am not sure I can get into a conversation with someone who can only thinking of attacking people.

Mister, I just made a point by point rebuttal to the obvious and glaring flaws in your arguments. If you can't stand when someone does that to you, I apologise.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#145

Post by devnonymous »

realonedev wrote: post #142
bpodgursky wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not Indian, I'm a white middle class American.

I will give you a free advice: Most Aadhar criticism comes from and is supported by People who have lost money due to due to direct benefit scheme. Those people accumulated lots of money over years by producing fake bills, extra names in the ration cards. Aadhar card started to roll out in 2011 itself, How many of these privacy freaks had raise the voice and if they did, were they supported ? No. Only after Aadhar st…

I said this a bit differently in another comment but I'll ask you this - would you still support Aadhaar if the party in power was not the Bjp? Remember that the party in power will inevitably change at some point but this project will remain. Would you be able to trust any party besides the Bjp with being in charge of this project? If you would, well I won't argue with you, if not you really have to think about the implications of what is happening.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#146

Post by realonedev »

schoen wrote: post #51
realonedev wrote: post #28

I belong to the third world of the third world. State called Uttar Pradesh. If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India. Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar : My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents. Which means, No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe. Since the government has advertis…

> Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014. Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then. I realize you're probably talking about people in India in this context, not people in the U.S., but I helped write part of this anti-Aadhar post back in 2012: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/09/indias-gargantuan-biom... In support of your view that some cr…

Aadhar started rolling out in 2011 itself, people started enrolling out then only and started getting Aadhar card by post.

Some privacy activists did stood and enquired but did not get much support or voice.

After 6 years who are the people who are creating noise and running from corner to corner ?

Do these people actually care about privacy? Hard to think.

Have these people lost money due to direct benefit scheme? Plausible.

There is no reason to blatantly hate Aadhar unless

- you are a corrupt government employee

- you are a middleman contractor

- you had invested in something and were hoping that the roI will come as a bribe from the common people

- you fear more direct to benefit schemes in future because you have been accumulating wealth by being a middleman all through your life.

-- you are a privacy freak typing on a device assembled in China.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#147

Post by mindentropy »

mundanevoice wrote: post #65
ganduG wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But using Facebook and other websites is a choice . Using Aadhar is not a choice - its mandatory.

How do you suggest in a country of fucking Billion people you would get people to use something? 40% people don't understand shit, doesn't care about privacy, they want food on their table, they want to get the money they rightfully earn. These people are less fortunate than many of us. With Aadhar and Household gas linked, they get the subsidy rightly in their bank account without paying every fucking agent that wou…

Just a question to you. I can understand the problems faced by bribery and it being eradicated but how according to your argument can the person who is illiterate understand about privacy or for that matter things he/she is not expert in? To elaborate it is not the responsibility of the illiterates or the people who are not knowledgeable to worry about the privacy. Instead it is the responsibility of the people implementing the system to make sure that all security and privacy is implemented and also the laws to be introduced to protect the common man.

This is the very reason the government has think tanks and expert advisors. It seems all these people have failed. When the system fails completely then again it is these same poor common man who will face the brunt presently seen or unseen.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#148

Post by abhishivsaxena »

_nedR wrote: post #136
prodmerc wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending anything, it's just extremely hypocritical to accuse India's system of being dystopian while currently existing systems in "developed" nations are even worse.

America doesn't have this. EU doesn't have this. AFAIK only UAE has such a comprehensive system. What countries are you talking about that takes mandatory 10-finger + retina scans of its citizens and compiles it into a single database? India hasn't banned DDT which has been banned for decades in every other country. We have crippled infrastructure, severe poverty. Yet India has time and money to implement one of the…

DDT isn't banned in most countries. It's actually recommended by WHO for INDOOR use in Malria control because it's the only viable option. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2006/pr50/en/

I was hoping to only hear Anti Aadhaar FUD in this thread. Had no idea you had your target set on DDT as well.

As for comparision with USA/EU, India is a different country with different set of problem/challenges. Instead of Aping others we should apply our mind to the problem and come up with solution. Aadhaar is the best example of that.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#149

Post by blindwatchmaker »

realonedev wrote: post #118
blindwatchmaker wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't spread fake news like the communists. > mostly anti current government (it spreads fake news most of the times) Do you consider views from sources that disagree with your own as 'fake news' ? A lot of what you've posted here sounds a lot like the hyper partisan BJP trolls that seem to pop up wherever there's any criticism of the Modi government. You should try to do better on HN, because I would prefer not to…

Your assumptions mean nothing,unless you produce quantifiable data and verifiable data source to proof any of your claims. Your statement combining the words, hyper, troll, government, modi, sanity, are not backed up by any data nor they hold true for anyone else expect the ones having a biased brain such, as yours. I can prove point by point how communists spread fake news. Your assumptions about equating disagreein…

> I would rather communicate with those who don't label people and jump to conclusions.

Physician, heal thyself.

I love HN and have been reading it for a long time, content to browse. There's very little that jolts me into actually commenting, but your comments since registering did because it's reminiscent of a pattern anyone that's been involved with Indian/South Asian communities or discussions online have seen over and over again - a topic that's critical of the Modi government or the BJP being injected with insults and invective over constructive discussion by sudden newcomers.

The only thing missing to complete the BJP bingo is the traditional cries of 'anti-national'.

Re: Aadhaar isn’t progress – it’s dystopian and dangerous

#150

Post by realonedev »

abhishivsaxena wrote: post #140
gumby wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am suspicious of numbers like 99% especially given that the aadhaar scheme is only a few years old. Such statistics are always...messy and look at how hard it is to get other such statistics (vaccination numbers for example). India has an unusually good (by international standards) ability to get some of these mass efforts implemented (again, I'm thinking of vaccination push) but never this quickly. In addition, su…

But if we don't believe in any statistics what else is to debate? That's the point I was bringing up, that there seems to me much conjecture and not much facts being brought up by Anti-Aadhaar lobby. I think enrollment started in 2011 - so it's 6 years to get 99% coverage. I don't think it's fair to bring in other statistics into this, because in this case all they have to do a SQL COUNT to get the number of enrolled…

Enrollment started in 2011 and people also got it via post in 2011.

Why do you think the people didn't supported the privacy activists for all these 5 years ?

Who are the people making disproportionate amount of noise (not signal) against Aadhar ?

Do they actually care about privacy? Hard to believe.

Do these people have vested interest in sustaining the corrupt middleman model ? Easy to believe.

If you had lost thousands of rupees because ( bribe money) because of Aadhar card of others, you would definitely make noise ( not signal ).

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