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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#141

Post by michaelmrose »

soheil wrote: post #121

Imagine not so long in the future if self-driving cars were forced to reveal their code because of the right-to-repair bill, 1. who without a vast depth of knowledge in C++, etc. would be able to go anywhere near it? 2. even if they did is it in their best interest or anyone else's if they tinker with the code and made the car take undesirable actions? Maybe buying a tractor should be replaced with leasing tractors,…

Your car is full of things only an expert could reasonably be expected to tinker with because it is somewhat open a wide range of such people are available to fix it. If they screw it up your massive chunk of rolling death may roll over someones baby.

The circumstances are in no way new and don't merit new rules or expectations. What is actually new is increasing legal and technical roadblocks to self repair that enable manufacturers to design hardware that is worse for nearly everyone and better for their bottom line.

These markets are full of entrenched players who all have an financial incentive to make anti consumer choices so expecting a free market fix is probably laughable. The only real solution is the hated "regulation" where we seek individuals who are subject matter experts without financial incentives to dictate that people must do what is best for everyone rather than their bonus.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#142

Post by michaelmrose »

kodfodrasz wrote: post #128
soheil wrote: post #121

Imagine not so long in the future if self-driving cars were forced to reveal their code because of the right-to-repair bill, 1. who without a vast depth of knowledge in C++, etc. would be able to go anywhere near it? 2. even if they did is it in their best interest or anyone else's if they tinker with the code and made the car take undesirable actions? Maybe buying a tractor should be replaced with leasing tractors,…

They lock down the software in their well understood interests: - vendor lock in (this is not good for customers) - safety (testing this stuff is expesive and lengthy. Every change forces a re-test. They are liable for this stuff) - defending the brand value (if there is an accident because of modified software non-hackers will blame the manufacturer for making it possible) This all weill get worse with neural networ…

You are arguing for accepting lockdowns on tractors so that john deere can screw their customers harder based on the safety of systems that don't exist yet. Drivers who cause accidents will end up liable just as they are now.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#143

Post by thomastjeffery »

andrewchambers wrote: post #2

I don't like the idea that we have to pass laws to force companies to make a better product. Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this?

You must not know any farmers or ranchers. John Deere gets more love than Ford, Chevy, and Dodge combined. I haven't ever met someone who has sat in a tractor without a positive opinion of this company.

Agriculture is a very technical industry, so most of these people are quite well-educated, but that education doesn't usually include software. As soon as someone in this field wraps their head around DRM and its consequences, they are likely to fight it hard, but getting to that point takes a little more explanation than it does for you or me.

In the grand scheme of things, at least in the short term, advertising "no DRM" isn't likely to make a dent in John Deere's market share.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#144

Post by michaelmrose »

stagbeetle wrote: post #123
chii wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. The issue is that any open version of a product has to compete in such a way that matches the buy cycle of the product. I don't imagine farmers buy new combines every year! These things has to work for decades! Ditto with a lot of idustrial machinery.

> Except the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. This applies solely to stock market speculation, due to a perfect amalgamation of human psychological biases and fallacies. In consumer economics we use utility value (iirc, it's been far too long since I've opened a textbook). Consumers will definitely drop their JD's if a "no-bullshit," almost as good option comes along, because the utility v…

This assumes consumers actually rationally assess the value and don't value emotional brand attachments.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#145

Post by tw04 »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

What, specifically, is a threat to kill people in the software? I'm sorry but that just reads like a John Deere shill here to defend the cause. We got by for literally two hundred years without magical software in tractors, and we were just fine.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#146

Post by foepys »

goodplay wrote: post #113
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Let people run their own software. If they kill someone, hold them liable. If deaths become endemic, then consider locking them down. As many comments on these stories demonstrate, farmers have as much valid reasons to have control over their equipment as John Deere has for preventing it. Technology is always about trade-offs. It's just that John Deere took things too far.

> If deaths become endemic, then consider locking them down.

As much as I dislike John Deer's strategy, your statement is just stupid. Waiting for people do die before you regulate to make it safer doesn't work. Look at Ford who calculated that saving $x on a component was worth it if only y people die and their relatives sue.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#147

Post by intrasight »

ericd wrote: post #140
intrasight wrote: post #135

The jet engines in a modern airplane have some analogies here. You can think of an engine as a PaaS (Propulsion-as-a-Service). A tractor is HaaS (Harvesting-as-a-Service). Our technologies have reach this level of complexity - the must be offered as a service. Cars will soon be Mobility-as-a-Service. Putting on my economist hat, I'd say that it is the ultimate manifestation of "comparative advantage". If JD abuses th…

Many people do not want to buy things as a service, they want to buy and own something that was built correctly the first time, and if not, is supported for the reasonable lifetime of the product for the cost stated upfront, and can be supported by people outside the company out of their pocket after that. This as a service model is not inherent to the complexity, it's usually a cash grab.

But in an open capitalists society, such rent-seeking will be resisted by the market and by the law. A vendor has every right to make their offering a service. Unless, of course, they are abusing their monopoly position. IBM was taken to court for this in 1969.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#148

Post by CamperBob2 »

lobotryas wrote: post #129
rando832 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a team of hundred of engineers struggle with their codebase internally, Joe Farmer isn't going to have a fucking clue how to repair their software correctly. > But trust me on this, locking this down is a very good idea. Joe Farmer may not know, but Joe farmer has "the internet", and ability to pay an independent software engineer. And people would absolutely find and fix bugs that john deer is missing. Honestly…

What happens if this independent fix results in a death? Do you really think JD will escape liability?

Life is full of risks. This is, or may be, one of them. Allowing a handful of opaque corporations to monopolize the tools of food production and dictate their after-sale use is another risk.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#149

Post by eaceaser »

goodplay wrote: post #113
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Let people run their own software. If they kill someone, hold them liable. If deaths become endemic, then consider locking them down. As many comments on these stories demonstrate, farmers have as much valid reasons to have control over their equipment as John Deere has for preventing it. Technology is always about trade-offs. It's just that John Deere took things too far.

Think about what you just said for a second. "endemic" deaths of innocent people are the litmus test for whether software should be locked down? How is that in any way acceptable?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#150

Post by michaelmrose »

notliketherest wrote: post #14
digitalzombie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't a company take the initiative and grab all the customers who value this? You make it sounds so easy to start a tractor company.

The result of a free market is that the better products will always win out. By your logic your statement could just have easily as been "to start a car company" or "to start a rocket company" or "to start a computer company". These are all examples of industries whose existing players were supplanted by a better idea with smart, passionate and dedicated entrepreneurs.

This is so clearly fictional I find it difficult to argue not because you are not mistaken but because there is such a huge divide in our understanding of the world. Its as if we were discussing world affairs and you brought up the possible influence of astrology.

Economics isn't a great description of reality. Its a just so story that is made to make sense after the fact because it lacks the predictive power that defines science.

Messy, stupid, corrupt, emotional, irrational complicated is the rule as opposed to the exception in real life.

For instance no such animal as the free market you describe exists. Just because hard/impossible to repair tractors is a bad thing doesn't mean that anyone is inspired to fix this, that such a company would succeed in the fact of competition ethical and not so ethical.

The extremely probable failure of such an effort doesn't imply that the world wouldn't be a better place if this was so and so if this is important it falls on us as citizens to outline to the players what is acceptable and not via regulation.

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