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Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

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141–150 of 154 posts

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#141
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, once that's done as far as I understand it there is no way back The UK has 2 year to retract as article 50 allows that. 2 years is a long period in UK politics during which a vote of no-confidence could happen, calling for new elections that could retract article 50. Even if the 2 years pass, the EU already said that they would fast track the UK back in if a future government wants to come back. This is not o…

It's unclear if A50 can actually be revoked. There is a court case (starting in Ireland, with the goal of getting to the CJEU in Luxembourg ASAP) which is trying to answer that question. If the CJEU says that A50 cannot be revoked, then the Houses of Parliament can do whatever they want, they're leaving. They would be free to rejoin. Euro, schengen, and metricification are mandatory now though.

It is unclear whether it can be revoked, yes. It is also unclear whether it cannot be revoked. It's simply unclear.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#142
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll only let us back in the club if they choose to from now on [1]. Basically, they've left the door open for us to vote in a pro-EU party in the next general election and abandon the whole thing. That's why they won't agree a trade deal in the next 2 years. They're hoping, like me, that things will get sufficiently bad in the next 2 years the public gives a mandate to a pro-EU party, and the whole sorry mess can…

> and then we can try Johnson, Farage and the other scumbag liars for treason. I hope you're kidding here. Trying people who won the previous election for treason is the mark of the worst dictatorships. Please don't.

Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage never won any election ;)

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States yes that is one of the consequences of running a business. In the states you legally cannot deny service on the basis of any protected class. Protected classes include Race, Color, Religion, National Origin, Age (40+), Sex, Pregnancy, Citizenship, Familial Status, Disability Status, Veteran status, and Genetic information. This is because forcing him to accept tenants he doesn't want is a much sm…

That sounds like an enormous oversimplification of what, I imagine, is an extremely complex area of the law. In the case of prospective tenants, I assume a fair degree of self-incrimination would be required to prove discrimination based on a protected characteristic. To the point about some people's rights being "more important" than others', rights are a zero-sum game. Giving protected classes a right to service fr…

It's actually very simple and let me be extremely clear here, this is NOT about picking someone's rights over others, this is about the magnitude of injustice. Here's a list of people incriminated for discrimination by month for violating fair housing rules. In February for example Oklahoma landlords were found discriminating against Veterans with disabilities. Laws are written to protect the most vulnerable FIRST, not the most protected first. It's absolutely unconscionable to protect for example landlords over our veterans.

https://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/fa...

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious now > against what the rest of EU media and politicians are saying I've been paying a very close eye to this so I'm confused, what sources are authoritatively stating that A50 can't be revoked? Your Supreme Court piece does not cover it. In the UK, the only reason why some politicians say A50 can't be revoked is out of a concern for how it could play into negotiations. It's not a commentary on whether A50…

> I've been paying a very close eye to this so I'm confused, what sources are authoritatively stating that A50 can't be revoked? So have I. The only thing that has changed as far as I can see is that in the last couple of hours (and that's something I wasn't aware of when this thread came up) a number of politicians have said that they will propose a way for article 50 to be formally withdrawable. Up to now the statu…

Appreciate the comments here, some points:

- the draft resolution confirming that the EU endorses the possibility of revocation is consistent with noises made by EU politicians well in advance of the A50 notification. Tusk said it very clearly back in October (1). At the same time there are no EU sources that I know of that have suggested otherwise.

- The 'deal or no deal' rhetoric underlines the disadvantage of the UK in coming to a deal in a fixed time frame. It is not underlining the impossibility of aborting the withdrawal. This is more about how the UK will not be able to draw out exit negotiations in its favour while holding the EU hostage. Revocation is an advantage to the EU because at the end of the day, keeping the UK in the EU is still going to be a better than any other scenario on the table - money talks and without the UK EU members have a lot of unwanted budgeting pressures to sort out.

> But they've gotten worse, not better, if this trend continues there is no way things will work out in favor of remain.

I think evaluating the comment sections of publications is a very poor way to assess public opinion for a variety of reasons. This is why we have properly conducted surveys and surveys show that pre-referendum attitudes have shifted.

In the aggregate people are more pessimistic about the economic future, even leave voters. In my prior link you will find that its trending very steadily in one direction. Remember that leave voters pre-referendum by and large were working under the premise that Brexit would not have any personal cost attached to it. Surveys taken before the referendum have illustrated this. Another attitude highlighted in surveys that show that when leave voters are prompted how much money they would be willing to surrender in order to accomplish Brexit's stated goals, most leave voters balk (2). True public support for hard brexit (under no deal or under no customs union + no single market membership) is not strong at all and projected to get weaker as pressure builds around the economy and continued cuts and public service failures.

> Public opinion is a dangerous thing to count on, that much should be clear from this whole exercise.

Which is exactly the point. A government is helped having public opinion on its side, I'm saying shifts in attitude are already undermining future support for the way the UK pursues Brexit. None of the stated benefits of Brexit are due to unfold in the next 5 years and that realisation is not going unnoticed. We know there's no additional 350 million for the NHS being budgeted. We know there will be no trade deal in 2 years. We know that immigration is not going to be artificially cut. Deals with India and the US are a very long way of and if they transpire, they likely won't be good deals.

And I would argue that public support for the Brexit pursued by the UK currently never was very strong, even at its peak. The 'leave' vote got a majority because it was able to group public support for incompatible goals. Now the public finds out that most of those goals, if any at all, will come to pass or turn out to be an illusion (such as the supposed increase in sovereignty) public opinion only has one way to go.

I'm more bullish on the odds of Brexit being aborted now than at any point before. I still think the odds are low, but they are much better than they were before. I know the British press is going to interpret A50 as being the nail in the coffin for EU membership, but it's not a difficult analysis to come to the contrary position:

The only thing that has been predictable so far is the government doing a poor job at preparation, execution and thinking steps ahead. Every step of the way it's making strategic, tactical mistakes and fumbling on policy. It's the one thing we can count on. The odds of a deal being done in 24 months are slim in part because of this. And if there is no deal in time, 650 MPs will have to think hard a simple choice: it can green light a national disaster brought onto it by itself, or it can intervene.

It was politically tough to oppose the A50 notification because it will be regarded as subverting a democratic result. Inside of 2 years time, it will be at least as politically damaging to not intervene in a national disaster. And MPs that have blessed the notification now can credibly oppose government performance on Brexit while being inoculated against the charge that they are subverting the will of an electorate.

What are the odds that the government negotiates a good deal or any deal at all? They are not that good at all, just given all the things that are outside the control of the UK. The momentous act of revoking the withdrawal - while unthinkable now - will look like the better option down the line. EU's history is full of members changing their minds. All it takes is for the UK government to be consistent with past performance and do a poor job at what is the toughest project it has ever undertaken since WW2. There are other plausible outcomes, but Brexit is nowhere near as avoidable as most think.

But let there be no mistake, this whole is a gigantic mess no matter how it unfolds.

1) http://blogs.ft.com/david-allen-green/2016/10/18/can-an-arti... 2) http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/hard-brexit-only-if...

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#145
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unclear if A50 can actually be revoked. There is a court case (starting in Ireland, with the goal of getting to the CJEU in Luxembourg ASAP) which is trying to answer that question. If the CJEU says that A50 cannot be revoked, then the Houses of Parliament can do whatever they want, they're leaving. They would be free to rejoin. Euro, schengen, and metricification are mandatory now though.

It is unclear whether it can be revoked, yes. It is also unclear whether it cannot be revoked. It's simply unclear.

Exactly. Once that court case winds its way to the CJEU we will have a clear answer on that question.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They would be free to rejoin. Euro, schengen, and metricification are mandatory now though. Well, in principle they could get unanimous consent on concessions again , they just don't come pre-baked.

There has been a lot of fuss about those concessions in the past, I really wonder to what extent the poorer EU countries that had no say in this when those concessions were given would be willing to give the UK something they themselves had to give up to join. That might not go over well and there are a lot of those countries now. That's a dangerous game of roulette.

It's not only a case of "we didn't get these deals". The UK got them, it wasn't good enough so they left. If they want to rejoin they are admitting they made a huge mistake and can they pretty please come back?

Imagine you have a job, with a few perks other employees don't have, and you want more perks. And you don't get it, so you quit, complaining about how crap your employer is. A while later you ask for your old job back. What are the odds of you getting exactly the old perks back? ;)

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#147
post #137
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your ability to connect any recruitment related article discussing something local for anywhere in the world to your recruiting agency in Zurich is impressive:) I don't normally recognize people on HN without looking at the nickname but I know it's you all the time :)

Thank you! I honestly primarily try to add value. Some people moved because of these posts, so I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community.

> I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community.

And of course on your wallet.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#148
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! I honestly primarily try to add value. Some people moved because of these posts, so I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community.

> I hope my outreach has a positive net impact on the HN community. And of course on your wallet.

It's not so much actually. If you think recruiting is easy money, you are wrong.

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#149
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more tech on heaven and earth, Horatio, then can be caught up amidst your philosophies.

Oui, aber mit Deutsche, kaj Esperanoto, και Ελληνικά, I think my philosophies may be broader than most. More seriously, I know I would be surprised if more than 5% leave willingly. I don't want to go, I just see no choice. Our collective departure will probably boost the wages for developers who do stay in the UK, but by how much, and against which currencies I would not dare to say — economics is an expert level sub…

I actually would be one of the developers to come in. As bad as your problems are in the UK, the USA are far worse especially with your browser history effectively being able to be sold to the highest bidder[0]

Not mentioned([0]) is the fact that hiring and recruiting companies will be able to [ab]use this data

[0] http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-browser-history-could-...

Re: Brexit's Tech Brain Drain

#150
post #67

I know at least one programmer who is leaving the UK because of Brexit. Personally I am staying put and assuming things will work out ok.

Are they truly leaving, actually making plans and the like or did they just say they were going to leave because I heard countless friends talk of leaving for Canada if Trump won and not a damn one did.

> and not a damn one did.

Since the Patriot Act and other changes in the early 2000s, your nationality is henceforth Sticky if you live in the US.

My sister expatriated last year (to UK, actually) from US, and she had to hire an immigration attorney, go through interrogations (from both destination and comefrom), and actually got sent back to the US once they found accidentally conflicting stories from her friends who currently live in the UK.

I'd never make fun of people who express desire to leave. Not everyone has the same circumstances as you.

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