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Nevertheless, She Coded

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Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#141

Post by HiResSleep »

panglott wrote: post #56
dijit wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Susan Fowlers case is harrowing and disgusting and shows that sometimes there bad people in powerful positions who are sexist. I don't think the tone of "the world is sexist" is genuine or fair, Susan Fowlers case is notable because it's definitely the exception, not the norm. Of course I will be glad when things like that _never- happen_, but if you take the example of murders.. There is usually a huge murder proble…

This stuff, like catcalling, is mostly invisible to me as a man. But at some point, you read enough stories, you realize it's the norm, not the exception.

Yes, sexual harassment never happens when men of sound conscience are around.

However, when a woman is unfortunate enough to be in the absence of such protective presence, it will find her like an estrogen-seeking rocket...

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#142

Post by Eldt »

and0 wrote: post #61
panglott wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, reading this comment just a week after Susan Fowler's post on her experiences at Uber is surreal. It's not the ones complaining about this stuff who are "dividing the genders".

Just like BLM isn't the cause of racism, but if you gain from racism it hurts to have that fact actually brought up.

The amount of times I've seen some BLM support spout racist comments against white people is disappointing

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#143

Post by dashundchen »

chrisbrandow wrote: post #70

I just had a conversation with a friend of mine today about the issues she is facing as a "woman in tech". It was some stuff that really surprised me. On today of all days. Treatment of women as full-fledged peers is definitely something that needs better attention in our industry.

I am always amazed by the stories I hear. It's a common yet toxic mentality where women are told they can't or shouldn't do something, or aren't cut out for STEM because they are female.

I recently saw this surface on HN in the basement of this thread, discussing the appointment of Jennifer Widom as the dean of Stanford Engineering. Many posters speculated, without knowledge of her credentials, that she was unqualified compared to her male peers and only selected because she's a woman.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13779165

I don't know how it escapes them that this attitude is the literal definition of sexism, and that women in tech have to fight this constantly.

I saw it happen all the time in engineering school. I even occasionally see it in workplace. So many of my female classmates and coworkers are talked down to, discouraged and have their skills written off by their male counterparts (nevertheless, they persist). No wonder the share of women in STEM fields dwindles, the culture can be absolutely toxic.

I don't doubt that many people are honestly being unintentionally sexist. But it's on everyone to constructively call out this behavior and support a healthier culture in the school and workplace. At the very least, why would one want to write off the ideas and talent of half the population?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#144

Post by SilasX »

cmiles74 wrote: post #76
dethswatch wrote: post #16

Warren violated the rules- it has _nothing_ to do with her gender. Whether her points are validate or not, the rules were followed as they would have been with any man. If she wants to get her opinion out, she can hold a press conference outside the Senate or simply call Maddow, like she did- a friendly audience that would allow her to speak as long as they had time for.

I don't think it's reasonable to flag this page because of the link to Senator Warren.

It is when the whole framing of the piece is to equate a) flouting Senate rules for equal speaking opportunity with b) resistance to sexism.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#145

Post by thaumasiotes »

prepend wrote: post #28
zephyrthenoble wrote: post #21

I'm frankly quite surprised by the initial wave of comments disparaging this message. The facts are that women are poorly represented in the tech community[1], and do make less than men[2]. Any attempt to let women feel more accepted and bring about much needed change should be championed, not picked apart and belittled because you feel like you are personally being attacked when people are just asking for help. 1. h…

This is a really good point, but I think for me it's more of a visceral response to falseness or inaccuracy that was developed by programming actually. It is good to encourage women and other underrepresented groups to enter tech-just imagine how many awesome programmers we are missing out on- but I feel we can do this by being objectively accurate. I'm with you on the underrepresented story, this is very common. But…

> It is good to encourage women and other underrepresented groups to enter tech-just imagine how many awesome programmers we are missing out on

I don't follow the logic. Someone who enters tech through such an intervention is someone taken away from another field; why do we need another awesome programmer more than we need another awesome salesperson?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#146

Post by LyndsySimon »

cmiles74 wrote: post #80
LyndsySimon wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this addresses the parent's comment - they believe the pay disparity along gender lines disappears when hours worked and time spent out of the workforce. > Women in their late 20s earn around 92% of what their male peers receive, whereas women in their early 50s make just 71% of the average man's wages That makes sense, but doesn't mean that disparity increases as a woman ages - my first impression is that a…

It sounds like you believe it to be self-evident that pay equality was a problem in the past but not presently. What, to your mind, has made pay between the sexes equal in the last fifty years? While I grant you that people have made the issue more visible, I don't see any reason to think pay somehow became equal. On the contrary, studies insist that the problem persists to this day.

> It sounds like you believe it to be self-evident that pay equality was a problem in the past but not presently.

I've made no such claim.

I do believe that there is not a significant disparity in pay or opportunity based on gender alone in the tech industry in the US today. That belief is based on my own experience, which is subjective, and therefore I wouldn't presume to tell others that they should share it.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#147

Post by sheepmullet »

lostphilosopher wrote: post #66
dijit wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Susan Fowlers case is harrowing and disgusting and shows that sometimes there bad people in powerful positions who are sexist. I don't think the tone of "the world is sexist" is genuine or fair, Susan Fowlers case is notable because it's definitely the exception, not the norm. Of course I will be glad when things like that _never- happen_, but if you take the example of murders.. There is usually a huge murder proble…

For what it's worth, I'm not sure I've seen much I could objectively call sexism either. Some, but not a lot. Certainly not enough to use words like "systemic." One explanation for this is that it isn't happening. Another is that it isn't happening in my "spaces" (networks/companies/etc.). But another is that it is, but in ways that I don't see. I don't know how much all my coworkers are paid, and if someone is recei…

> What the fk is going on that I can work for years on teams of 90% men?

You have to seperate "unattractive to women" with sexism.

For example it's a truism of our field that to get reasonable pay rises you have to job hop.

Woman tend to want to stick around in a job longer than men. So it's a big negative for them.

Women tend to prefer building close relationships in the workplace. In a field that values technical competence above language and cultural compatibility it's harder to build these relationships. Again another big negative for women wanting to work in software dev.

Or consider that we as an industry love new and shiny and see how compatible that is with women who want to be able to take a few years off for children.

I could go on and on.

All these factors make our industry unattractive to many women... but they aren't sexist.

As a male software dev who works on older legacy software I am constantly judged when I interview for not keeping up with the industry.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#148

Post by lgas »

smt88 wrote: post #118
ruleabidinguser wrote: post #110

Also because the issue essentially doesnt exist. A victim complex is a real thing and there are real victims. You must acknowledge both, not just the latter (or just the former for that matter.) Sexism is real but severely overblown in my experience.

Is your experience that of a woman? If not, you really have no idea whether it's overblown or not.

Can only women be victims of sexism then?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#149

Post by tghw »

joeblow9999 wrote: post #137
Tsagadai wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely exists. Consider the pay disparity between men who negotiate well versus those who don't. Now look at HR studies that show women rarely negotiate (no links to studies from me right now but I have heard this anecdotally from hiring managers and I have read this before in business mags). Do you see how a problem can evolve? Do you know whether your equally skilled female colleagues are making less money t…

this just means there is a negotiation skills gap. there are a million parameters you can compare people on and determine who makes more money in life. good looking people make more on average too. If you're bad at negotiation it has nothing to do with being a man or woman. Are we supposed to nationalize or socialize individual negotiations?

Except for two things:

1. Women are expected (societally) to be more accommodating and compliant throughout most aspects of their lives, meaning they have less practice and comfort negotiating.

2. Even when women do negotiate, they end up being penalized for it, probably because of the expectations mentioned in point 1. See http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/lean-out-th.... Underlying study is here: https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#150

Post by mgbmtl »

dethswatch wrote: post #16

Warren violated the rules- it has _nothing_ to do with her gender. Whether her points are validate or not, the rules were followed as they would have been with any man. If she wants to get her opinion out, she can hold a press conference outside the Senate or simply call Maddow, like she did- a friendly audience that would allow her to speak as long as they had time for.

Said rules are not applied systematically, and there is clear bias in how they are applied.
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