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Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

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Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#141

Post by Terr_ »

plg wrote: post #122
pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

I recall an actual study where researchers had participants listen to people who were (a) very confident but turned out to be incorrect or (b) neutral but correct. Then they rated these people on their competence. The confident people were rated as more competent even though they were incorrect more often. It's depressing as hell.

It raises the question of whether such credulity is/was always maladaptive or whether there are current/past reasons for it to be so widespread.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#143

Post by belorn »

trhway wrote: post #125
belorn wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a small farm community of four houses, a few hundred/thousands years ago. One of the families has a animal die and is in dire need for help. Who do they ask for help? Some warrior, sitting on a iron throne and passing down judgment from high in one the houses, or is it the old women of the village who carries the memories of who did whom a favor and is responsible for the community threads that binds the fam…

>Some warrior, sitting on a iron throne and passing down judgment from high in one the houses, or is it the old women of the village who carries the memories of who did whom a favor and is responsible for the community threads that binds the families together. Who has the power to make the decision? if recent thousand of years of history is any guidance - the warrior on the throne will be asked to punish the witch[es…

While the waves of witch trial came and decline, that is mostly a 15th and early 16th centuries concept done by the church and not by small farm communities. There is no "thousand of years of history" where farm communities regularly killed the elder women, and its common theme in non-European/Christian history.

Its kind of telling if current view of history is that all elder women was hunted down and killed as witches under a single religion.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#144

Post by _tjm »

Clanan wrote: post #48
pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

This behavior is reinforced by current child-rearing and educational practices as well. Think about how much emphasis is placed on blind confidence, self-esteem, extroversion, etc. (at least in the U.S.). So it makes sense that confidence would be rewarded later in life when society defines it as a key metric before then. I recall reading a book which posited that this shift to confidence over other "interior" charac…

If you're able to could to find out the title of this book? It sounds interesting.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#145

Post by Y_Y »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #32
trustfundbaby wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of being divisive, this will generally only work if you're white, if you're a minority or a woman, there's way more pushback on all those things, even when you're right. Seen it many times.

First off, this is false. I've seen plenty of races and women succeed unworthily because they talk with extreme confidence. Secondly, are you only talking about the US because you're American? Because there are plenty of other countries in this world, and it's true in all of them.

If I hadn't seen this comment I would have posted something similar. I can't see why it should be downvoted.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#146

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

mulmen wrote: post #54
pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

I have noticed the same phenomenon. Since humans are social creatures I think there is an evolutionary bias to avoid decision paralysis and just follow whoever seems to be the most confident. We are better off in general if we just cooperate and take action instead of deliberating every decision so people seem to be wired to just accept the first thing that appears to be reasonable.

We pretty much still do instinctive, animal politics when it comes to respecting leaders. Style trumps substance.

But I think it's analogous - and possibly related to - the difference between individual decisions made by instinctive, narrative logic and emotions, and decisions made after formal, extended, peer-reviewed reality-based research.

It took a long time for humans to invent science and logic, partly because science and logic use a lot of time, energy, and resources. So you need a certain level of physical security before you can even consider them.

If you research the history of science, many of the post-enlightenment heavy hitters were independently wealthy. They certainly weren't worried about food or having a roof over their heads.

Moving beyond animal alpha politics requires the same leap in collective intelligence - which may require everyone to be independently wealthy.

Democracy isn't enough, because when you have a majority making political choices instinctively, and a resource-rich minority manipulating them for personal greed, there's no room left for rational post-animal post-alpha politics.

Put simply, Trump and Clinton are both inevitable products of a scarcity economy.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#147

Post by id122015 »

mulmen wrote: post #62
id122015 wrote: post #53

They become micromanagers not leaders. Its a political problem. When voting is rigged it happens that those who get benefits vote for those incompetent. And those incompetent promise free benefits to obtain votes. Vicious circle.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Are you saying all voting is rigged? Also not all incompetent managers are micro-managers, I have had problems with managers that are uninvolved as well. It may be possible for a candidate to gain votes by promising free benefits (or even non-free benefits) to their constituents and then actually grant those benefits. I would not describe that situation as a problem because that's exac…

There are a lot of facts that need to be explained but I'll try to tell you the ideas in a few paragraphs. I cant summarise a whole stack of books in such a short time.

Representative Democracy: Do you understand by that a contract between people where those who never paid a cent in tax but receive free benefits have the right to vote ? Maybe that will answer the question about how incompetent managers raise to the top.

Business Have you not heard about how the leader of Mozilla? or some other company has been voted out because he expressed his ideas about sexuality ? Or are you not familiar with how a company traded by shares is GOVERNED by a board of directors ? Cisco founder has been fired, thats an example of how elections work in a business.

Maybe you should watch The Office movies to understand how and why incompetent people are given manager positions. Its a comedy and the main actor plays very well the incompetent manager. There are also some serials where voting is involved but the manager does all he can do go his own way.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#148

Post by watwut »

Clanan wrote: post #48
pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

This behavior is reinforced by current child-rearing and educational practices as well. Think about how much emphasis is placed on blind confidence, self-esteem, extroversion, etc. (at least in the U.S.). So it makes sense that confidence would be rewarded later in life when society defines it as a key metric before then. I recall reading a book which posited that this shift to confidence over other "interior" charac…

I think that child raising practice is direct consequence: parents own expense is that humble productive people got lower salaries and were less promoted then confident less productive people. Thus they don't want their children to be harmed by that later on.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#149

Post by watwut »

geofft wrote: post #131
Thrillington wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article doesn't even begin to posit "innate gender differences" It shows a correlation in confidence displayed to gender, but social conditioning of either confidence display or confidence interpretation are as good an explanation as any innate differences. It's even supported by some research, so it's actually a stronger hypothesis than yours.

The article makes it clear that this is a difference that happens across cultures. If men and women are in fact as equal as star-bellied and non-star-bellied sneetches, why do we see the same social conditioning in the same direction in every culture? Shouldn't half the cultures have the social conditioning in the other direction?

Men are stronger. When all is said and done, he can get his way by hitting her. You need quite modern society for women to be able to escape that and subsequently feeding themselves (and children). This alone can cause women being raised for lower self confidence and submissiveness.

Re: Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (2013)

#150

Post by GenWintergreen »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #8

Because talking with confidence will go 90% of the way to convincing people that you know what you're talking about. So often I've worked with assholes who talk with such confidence that most people won't bother filtering the garbage coming from their mouths. They just believe it. It's almost eerie how effectively talking with confidence works. It's so effective that when you complain about these charlatans, YOU look…

On a tangential note, there's another quality that struck me as (paradoxically) expected and surprising.

In my prior role, I worked as an analyst on a sales desk at a large investment bank -- a group in which "talking with confidence" really was 90% of the job.

The head of the desk had been one of the best salesman in the industry, and had (fairly) received compensation to reward that. However, that didn't quite translate into leadership skills (in my opinion), and I felt our team suffered heavily for that.

It's a split take on "one ends up at the job one is least qualified for", but a result I presume must happen when the culture at an organization such as a large bank promotes a top individual producer to management solely on the basis of his/her individual production.

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