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India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

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Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#141

Post by wallace_f »

cheesy_dionysus wrote: post #135
wallace_f wrote: post #125

The economist inside me says it would be better to tax disposable plastic. The tax could cover the cost to clean up the litter. That would create jobs in three ways: 1) plastic clean-up jobs, 2) businesses and economic activity that desperately need disposable plastic can still possibly survive, and ) jobs making disposable plastic. Anyways, it's a lot better than taxing things we all agree we want more of. Like jobs…

Local governments in India (mostly all of them) tax disposable plastic already.

Then the tax was not high enough. The role of government should not be to use heavy-handed rules that arbitrarily distort market and place limits on freedoms. It can work out better for everyone to govern the externalities of human behaviour through market incentives. Everyone can win in that situation. People that still really need disposable plastic can still buy it if they need it that much. In other words, there is a price equilibrium where the cost of plastic pollution to society is less than the revenue generated by plastic goods consumption.

One of my favourite examples of this concept is marijuana laws in Colorado. 1 BB in gov rev, 200 MM in tax rev alone. Less spent on law enforcement. Less crime due to a black market. Less innocents in jail that are spending tax dollars instead of producing them. Everyone wins except the DEA and prison system.

edit, source: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/marijuana-tax-revenue-hit-2...

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#142

Post by greggman »

Kluny wrote: post #111
WalterBright wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father told me that American highways used to be lined with trash until it was made illegal to throw trash out the window.

There was this scene in Mad Men where Don Draper, Betty Draper and the kids go out for a picnic in the new family car. They eat lunch in a grassy field, then when they're done, they pack up their basket and blanket, leaving the beer cans, food wrappers, empty bottles, plastic cutlery, and chicken bones scattered on the grass. That scene shocked and horrified me more than all the sexism, racism, and homophobia combine…

That still happens in America. See pictures of Washington DC the day after 4th of July. Or Golden Gate Park in SF after a big festival. So many people leave their trash looks it like a dump.

Compare to say Cherry Blossom watching in Japan where a large park will be entirely covered in people but when it's over they will have all cleaned it up.

It's a cultural issue. I have no idea how to influence western cultures to care as much. I've see similar things in most European countries (trashing places).

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#143

Post by chimeracoder »

wallace_f wrote: post #125

The economist inside me says it would be better to tax disposable plastic. The tax could cover the cost to clean up the litter. That would create jobs in three ways: 1) plastic clean-up jobs, 2) businesses and economic activity that desperately need disposable plastic can still possibly survive, and ) jobs making disposable plastic. Anyways, it's a lot better than taxing things we all agree we want more of. Like jobs…

> The tax could cover the cost to clean up the litter. That would create jobs in three ways: 1) plastic clean-up jobs, 2) businesses and economic activity that desperately need disposable plastic can still possibly survive, and ) jobs making disposable plastic.

Enforcement of a ban will likely come through a fine, which will have the same effect. Think of the ban as a very large excise tax. Plus, the ban only applies to certain plastics, not all plastics - you could tax those at a reasonable rate for revenue.

Secondly, you don't really need to pay people to do cleanup. The very poor in India already rummage for plastic material and recycle that as a means of income. The problem is that, before the ban, the amount of material disposed was too high. Once you stop the inflow of new trash, cleaning up the rest is pretty tractable.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#144

Post by snowpanda »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #42
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see what the above has to do with prejudice, personally. Poor air quality is a problem in many parts of the world, notably so in developing areas.

The prejudice seems to be "ah India, nice try but you still fail badly in an unrelated area" while in fact in this regard Delhi is more progressive than much of Europe and the US. Reducing plastic waste is a step in the right direction and should not be dismissed just because there are other problems that may be harder to fix right now.

>"ah India, nice try but you still fail badly in an unrelated area"

That's not what a prejudice is. It's also not what he said. Maybe if people wouldn't be so hypersensitive we could address the problems a country might be facing. India has many issues.

So what if he points that out, while we're discussing a different issue? It's part of having a conversation.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#145

Post by [deleted] »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #42
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see what the above has to do with prejudice, personally. Poor air quality is a problem in many parts of the world, notably so in developing areas.

The prejudice seems to be "ah India, nice try but you still fail badly in an unrelated area" while in fact in this regard Delhi is more progressive than much of Europe and the US. Reducing plastic waste is a step in the right direction and should not be dismissed just because there are other problems that may be harder to fix right now.

[deleted]

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#146

Post by mgkimsal »

greggman wrote: post #142
Kluny wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was this scene in Mad Men where Don Draper, Betty Draper and the kids go out for a picnic in the new family car. They eat lunch in a grassy field, then when they're done, they pack up their basket and blanket, leaving the beer cans, food wrappers, empty bottles, plastic cutlery, and chicken bones scattered on the grass. That scene shocked and horrified me more than all the sexism, racism, and homophobia combine…

That still happens in America. See pictures of Washington DC the day after 4th of July. Or Golden Gate Park in SF after a big festival. So many people leave their trash looks it like a dump. Compare to say Cherry Blossom watching in Japan where a large park will be entirely covered in people but when it's over they will have all cleaned it up. It's a cultural issue. I have no idea how to influence western cultures to…

2 weeks ago on my way to work, I watched a guy pull off to the side of the road. He opened his car door, and just dumped trash out - a few small bags of trash. He had just driven past a gas station and convenience store - both with publicly accessible trash cans to throw stuff away - you don't even have to get out of your car. It's a bizarre mindset some people have - let me drive past the driver-accessible trash cans in a paved parking lot, then pull off on to grass and dirt to dump my crap out of the car. There are some aspects of the US which are great, but this large segment of the population which has less than zero regard for public space is... truly crappy.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#147

Post by mgkimsal »

tracker1 wrote: post #88
jws wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've driven through quite a bit of the United States. Attitudes to roadside littering vary wildly. Some eastern Washington state highways and rural Kentucky highways have mind bogglingly improbable amounts of litter for the number of people which travel them. Time to roll out the "Crying Indian Ad" for another generation.

Littering just pisses me off... I think that and vandalizing publicly accessible restrooms are the two things most likely to inspire a violent response in my mind. It's a complete lack of morality and respect for other's property, and community in general.

> It's a complete lack of morality and respect for other's property, and community in general.

Unless you're visiting from another state, it's YOUR OWN property; you are the public.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#148

Post by 13of40 »

mgkimsal wrote: post #146
greggman wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still happens in America. See pictures of Washington DC the day after 4th of July. Or Golden Gate Park in SF after a big festival. So many people leave their trash looks it like a dump. Compare to say Cherry Blossom watching in Japan where a large park will be entirely covered in people but when it's over they will have all cleaned it up. It's a cultural issue. I have no idea how to influence western cultures to…

2 weeks ago on my way to work, I watched a guy pull off to the side of the road. He opened his car door, and just dumped trash out - a few small bags of trash. He had just driven past a gas station and convenience store - both with publicly accessible trash cans to throw stuff away - you don't even have to get out of your car. It's a bizarre mindset some people have - let me drive past the driver-accessible trash can…

Counterpoint: I went on vacation to the Dominican Republic a few years back, and went to one of the more remote villages where there was a river outlet. There was a guy there who wanted to take us out on his boat, but we looked in the water and about half of it was covered with an opaque drift of plastic jugs, pieces of styrofoam, etc. I think in the US we have some antisocial assholes roaming around like the one you saw, but it's not like everyone does it by default.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#149

Post by agentgt »

WalterBright wrote: post #28
Maarten88 wrote: post #13

Rwanda also has this policy, since 2008, and they enforce it. The country is very clean, it looks different than other African countries (and countries like the US), just because there is no plastic rubbish everywhere. I think this is a very good policy, and would welcome it at home. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/15/rwanda...

My father told me that American highways used to be lined with trash until it was made illegal to throw trash out the window.

I live and walk along the Charles river and over the last couple of decades Boston and surrounding towns have been actively trying to keep the river and the river walk clean.

Despite all the signs I still have seen people pick up their dogs poop before they pick up their own trash. I literally watched an invidial drop a Twix wrapper while picking up their dogs poop (the fine for not picking up your dog is actually less but there are more signs and I guess stronger culture awareness).

There are signs all over the place not to dump goddam bread into the river or use aggressive fertilizer as this increases runoff and messes up the aquatic wild life.

It's ironic that people will pick up their dog shit because by the middle of summer the swan,geese,duck population is so high from bread dumping that there is bird shit all over the places (walk way). Some of the geese and swans have excrement that is very comparable to the largest dogs.

Re: India has banned disposable plastic in Delhi

#150

Post by thewhitetulip »

geodel wrote: post #35

I do not see any coverage in Indian media. Could it be one of those official notifications which public at large hardly follows but it breeds corruption by enforcement officials. Though looking at Indian papers I came across this rather frightening news: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/environment/pollutio...

The Indian media doesn't care about reality, they want drama and sentimentalization.
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