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Software Engineering at Google

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Re: Software Engineering at Google

#141

Post by dripton »

varelse wrote: post #96

Not one word about what I consider the most toxic aspect of working at Google: blind allocation. Unless one absolutely does not care what one wishes to work on, joining Google is throwing your future into the Hogwarts hat of an ill-defined cabal of billionaires to pick your job at Google. Sometimes that works out, but most of the time you are allocated to whatever mission-critical project is currently leaking buttche…

That tenure report looks pretty useless. You can't tell how much of it is not hiring, and how much is people leaving. Any metric where Kodak is #1 is probably not a metric that indicates good places to work.

Re: Software Engineering at Google

#142

Post by hueving »

jboggan wrote: post #130
hueving wrote: post #58

Google has gotten so large so quickly in the past 3 years, that I wonder how much damage has been done to their engineering culture. A lot of "less than stellar people" have joined in these recent years according to several of my friends that work there (in infrastructure and some ML groups). It seems the push to golang is entirely to sustain large projects with average engineers. Maybe somewhere high up they decided…

I've only been there 13 months but I've found the quality of previous and new hires are ridiculously high. Given the number of talented people applying every day I think Google could increase hiring by 100% with no appreciable drop in quality. Google has a lot of imperfections addressed elsewhere in the comments here but the engineering culture is extremely strong and one of the best parts about being there. I think…

>I've only been there 13 months but I've found the quality of previous and new hires are ridiculously high.

Seek out the people that were there 6+ years ago and compare their quality with the average Googler. You'll likely notice a difference.

Google now has over 50,000 employees. It's not possible to get that big that quickly without a reduction in hiring rigor. There wasn't a sudden influx of geniuses to fill that demand.

Re: Software Engineering at Google

#143

Post by wdr1 »

varelse wrote: post #110
fhoffa wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blind allocation? When I joined Google I was given 4 teams in 2 different locations to choose. I had lunch with each of the teams, and chose the one that better suited my style. To be fair, your experience at Google will depend a lot on what team you land in. Not everyone's given a choice, but now I know better: Talk to your recruiter and make them clear what you want.

Sure, that would be great, but as a result of leaving, I have been blacklisted by HR from ever returning. And the one guy that tried to bring me back in a year ago met in the lobby of his building and then walked me out to the marsh behind the GooglePlex before saying a word to me. I then asked if I could use said technology for which I am a recognized expert, he said no, and that was the end of that. I have been tem…

> Sure, that would be great, but as a result of leaving, I have been blacklisted by HR from ever returning.

I personally know several people who have left & come back up.

If you left on bad terms, then of course any company wouldn't want you back.

Re: Software Engineering at Google

#144

Post by hueving »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #104
hueving wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, if it mentioned those, search would still be the version we saw in 2007. None of the other products would exist yet because they would still be conducting user studies based on wire frame mock ups of workflows designed by committees of behavioral psychologists. That's a bit dramatic, but when your product development has a fast turnaround for fixes (git push vs 100 million dollar recall) and it won't kill peop…

A clear statement of what you're going to do, some constraints on the design a la Design-by-Contract, and languages/libraries that mitigate errors by design are so easy to do that small shops do them on a regular basis. Ada/SPARK, Eiffel, Ocaml, and Haskell are examples with steady business in industry with last three used on relatively-fast-moving projects. Add in static analysis, spec-based generation of tests, and…

All of the processes you just described are antithetical to the processes I was referring to. Writing URL, design specs, etc is not the same thing is automated test generation, static analysis, and an API contract agreement. The thing you just described is exactly what I'm saying replaces all of the "on paper" crap that was taught as "software engineering" in schools as short as 4 years ago.

Re: Software Engineering at Google

#145

Post by varelse »

nostrademons wrote: post #134
amscanne wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't blacklisted for leaving, that's blatantly false. Your story is obviously missing some key elements. Median tenure does not necessarily indicate retention issues for core roles at any company. It could simply be rapid growth or lots of roles that typically come with high turnover (e.g Amazon's warehouse employees).

You get classified as "regretted" or "non-regretted" attrition. If you're "regretted", you can come back anytime within I think 2 years without interviewing, or with favorable interview afterwards. If you're "non-regretted", it can become very difficult to come back unless you have a really strong recommendation from some other manager within Google, or come in through a company they acquire. They already have data o…

That sounds right. I was on a team leaking personnel managed by a manager who clearly wanted to be doing other things with his other team and who forgot I existed for the 3 out of the 4 months I was there until I reminded him I existed whereupon I was told I was failing to meet his expectations.

Upon complaining that it was unfair to judge me behind the curve when there had been zero feedback whatsoever up to that point, he then reported me to HR and offered to let me leave the team. There were two other potential teams making use of the technology for which I have expertise: one was new and it had zero openings at the time but which is now arguably one of the most prominent teams at Google and the other one's manager asked me one question "Where did you get your degree?" and didn't like my answer (I suspect) because it wasn't Stanford (desirable attributes for the position listed a Stanford degree) but I don't know for sure because he cut off communication at that point

And yes, in a perfect world I should have reminded my manager sooner of my existence but he was off on paternity leave as well with no one to run things in his absence so I really don't know the winning move here other than what I did: leave for one of Google's competitors where I spent the next 4.5 years or so focusing exclusively on the aforementioned technology.

If Google HR is dismissing the AUC of my entire career over 4 blind-allocated months at Google, that's asinine, but it would explain a lot and fit the facts. Thanks for the info.

Re: Software Engineering at Google

#146

Post by yuhong »

varelse wrote: post #96

Not one word about what I consider the most toxic aspect of working at Google: blind allocation. Unless one absolutely does not care what one wishes to work on, joining Google is throwing your future into the Hogwarts hat of an ill-defined cabal of billionaires to pick your job at Google. Sometimes that works out, but most of the time you are allocated to whatever mission-critical project is currently leaking buttche…

I remember michaelochurch.

Re: Software Engineering at Google

#147

Post by yuhong »

throwawaydbfif wrote: post #140
nostrademons wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It largely depends on how impressive you are when you come in, and how in-demand your skillset is across the company. After the hiring decision is made, managers then "bid" on Nooglers they want for their teams, and higher-priority teams (like Android, Ads or Search) will beat out lower-priority teams (like Blogger or Finance). If multiple managers bid on you but you don't like the team you're assigned to, you have t…

The bidding process seems like something that could be brimming with discrimination. For example, if you didn't go to a top tier school you could be hired on only to find out that a single team wants you. It's in bumfuck nowhere 2000 miles away and its primary purpose is to program the road sign outside google HQ. It could lead to very different googles for different people, and makes me wonder if applying to work th…

This remind me that I don't like employment anti-discrimination laws, especially for jobs highly unlike manual labor. One of the reasons is PIPs which best show the kinds of problems I am talking about IMO, and I think there is a lot of laws that varies by state there (with California being most strict I think).

Re: Software Engineering at Google

#148

Post by stuckagain »

hueving wrote: post #142
jboggan wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only been there 13 months but I've found the quality of previous and new hires are ridiculously high. Given the number of talented people applying every day I think Google could increase hiring by 100% with no appreciable drop in quality. Google has a lot of imperfections addressed elsewhere in the comments here but the engineering culture is extremely strong and one of the best parts about being there. I think…

>I've only been there 13 months but I've found the quality of previous and new hires are ridiculously high. Seek out the people that were there 6+ years ago and compare their quality with the average Googler. You'll likely notice a difference. Google now has over 50,000 employees. It's not possible to get that big that quickly without a reduction in hiring rigor. There wasn't a sudden influx of geniuses to fill that…

Doesn't that suffer from survivor bias?

Re: Software Engineering at Google

#149

Post by jboggan »

hueving wrote: post #142
jboggan wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only been there 13 months but I've found the quality of previous and new hires are ridiculously high. Given the number of talented people applying every day I think Google could increase hiring by 100% with no appreciable drop in quality. Google has a lot of imperfections addressed elsewhere in the comments here but the engineering culture is extremely strong and one of the best parts about being there. I think…

>I've only been there 13 months but I've found the quality of previous and new hires are ridiculously high. Seek out the people that were there 6+ years ago and compare their quality with the average Googler. You'll likely notice a difference. Google now has over 50,000 employees. It's not possible to get that big that quickly without a reduction in hiring rigor. There wasn't a sudden influx of geniuses to fill that…

They're pretty much the same raw talent, just with 6+ extra years of navigating the Goog and collecting all the arcana that makes you an effective engineer there. Of all of the complaints I have heard from older and newer Googlers, not a single one (in person or on Memegen) has ever complained about a drop in engineer quality. If anything it is a continuing frustration over how high the hiring bar continues to be and how we can't get referral bonuses for any of our friends.

Re: Software Engineering at Google

#150

Post by varelse »

wdr1 wrote: post #143
varelse wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that would be great, but as a result of leaving, I have been blacklisted by HR from ever returning. And the one guy that tried to bring me back in a year ago met in the lobby of his building and then walked me out to the marsh behind the GooglePlex before saying a word to me. I then asked if I could use said technology for which I am a recognized expert, he said no, and that was the end of that. I have been tem…

> Sure, that would be great, but as a result of leaving, I have been blacklisted by HR from ever returning. I personally know several people who have left & come back up. If you left on bad terms, then of course any company wouldn't want you back.

The thing is that it didn't seem like that at the time. Someone high up went around the company to see if there was a fit for me, claimed there wasn't, and then said I could either give up on the technology or go work somewhere else. An offer came in around then to do so, I took it. Ironically, that person ultimately left Google arguably over the consequences of adopting that technology later on.
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