Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

webkit.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 650 posts

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#141

Post by acqq »

sydd wrote: post #133
acqq wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not use the one supported by Google, and MS, Vulkan? https://www.lunarg.com/faqs/microsoft-support-vulkan/ "Microsoft has not expressed intent to support Vulkan."

and the next sentence goes "However, there are well defined mechanisms by which IHVs can ship a Vulkan driver on any version of Windows. But it will be as it is the case now with OpenGL. That is, it is up to the application to negotiate with the implementation to install an appropriate Vulkan driver for the hardware that is on the machine." Also "Vulkan is available on all versions of Windows that are on DirectX 12,…

> by all vendors

NVIDIA and ATI are hardly "all" vendors I care about. I'm personally not interested in the big desktop PCs. YMMV of course. But I'm personally very against "winner takes it all" and I'd really like some more universal web API, especially one that consumes less power on the iOS devices.

Edit: the answer to the question below by sydd: I'm honestly and pragmatically interested in iOS and Apple devices, not Microsoft, and not the Google-controlled ones. All these comments are about Apple's proposal for a standard for Web. I'm with the ones having the smaller market share here. I'm still sad Opera Presto is no more. I consider such "smaller" players extremely important for the web.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#142

Post by modeless »

andreyf wrote: post #131
modeless wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lots of design work needs to be done. So support Vulkan and then let's do the design work! The choice of underlying system API has effects on the design of the upper layers. Your refusal to support Vulkan is blocking progress.

Why so combative? How is a JavaScript API standard going to benefit from Vulkan support on Apple platforms? More specifically, how will a JS API benefit from being built exclusively for Vulkan, instead of multiple "APIs that have nuanced architectural differences", to borrow Dean's phrase?

To the extent that Vulkan has capabilities or features that don't map perfectly to Metal capabilities and features, native Apple Vulkan support would increase the performance and capabilities, and reduce the complexity and bugginess, of a hypothetical WebVulkan implementation on Apple platforms. And by reducing the compromises that have to be made for platform compatibility it would benefit the API design on all platforms.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#143

Post by SquareWheel »

acqq wrote: post #57
thedjinn wrote: post #14

The API looks like a direct port of Metal to JavaScript.

"We don’t expect this to become the actual API that ends up in the standard, and maybe not even the one that the Community Group decides to start with, but we think there is a lot of value in working code. Other browser engines have made their own similar prototypes. It will be exciting to collaborate with the community and come up with a great new technology for graphics." Also, Metal was announced June 2014, releas…

>Also, Metal was announced June 2014, released September 2014. Vulkan was announced March 2015, released Feb 2016.

It was rebranded then, but OpenGL Next was announced in August 2014.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8363/khronos-announces-next-ge...

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#144

Post by botverse »

om2 wrote: post #51
shmerl wrote: post #10

Will it be patent encumbered, like Apple's "proposal" for touch events API? > Meanwhile, GPU technology has improved and new software APIs have been created to better reflect the designs of modern GPUs. These new APIs exist at a lower level of abstraction and, due to their reduced overhead, generally offer better performance than OpenGL. The major platform technologies in this space are Direct3D 12 from Microsoft, Me…

We're committed to abiding by the W3C Patent Policy for this spec.

Expect some friction :)

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#145

Post by [deleted] »

om2 wrote: post #51
shmerl wrote: post #10

Will it be patent encumbered, like Apple's "proposal" for touch events API? > Meanwhile, GPU technology has improved and new software APIs have been created to better reflect the designs of modern GPUs. These new APIs exist at a lower level of abstraction and, due to their reduced overhead, generally offer better performance than OpenGL. The major platform technologies in this space are Direct3D 12 from Microsoft, Me…

We're committed to abiding by the W3C Patent Policy for this spec.

[deleted]

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#146

Post by corysama »

obl wrote: post #100
kristofferR wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is DirectX support needed? Isn't Vulkan supported on the same platforms as DirectX anyway?

xbox

Concrete example: The PS4 dashboard is actually WebGL via Chromium (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIhtcUvi0BQ&t=55m25s) I don't think PS4 supports OpenGL, DX or Vulkan. Sony has their own API.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#147

Post by fnord123 »

dkonofalski wrote: post #109
NickGerleman wrote: post #9

"The major platform technologies in this space are Direct3D 12 from Microsoft, Metal from Apple, and Vulkan from the Khronos Group. While these technologies have similar design concepts, unfortunately none are available across all platforms." So Apple, the only company not supporting Vulkan on their platforms, is complaining that there isn't a cross-platform solution?

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by "not supporting Vulkan on their platforms"? I thought Vulkan was an API that software developers used for graphics... Isn't that a part of OpenGL? Is Apple actively blocking something or have they just left something out?

Vulkan is a new API distinct from OpenGL. It's lower level but has a nicer API in some respects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulkan_(API)

Apple decided to not support Vulkan as it had been developing a competing API called Metal at around the same time. I don't know why they don't also support Vulkan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_(API)

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#148

Post by paulddraper »

NickGerleman wrote: post #9

"The major platform technologies in this space are Direct3D 12 from Microsoft, Metal from Apple, and Vulkan from the Khronos Group. While these technologies have similar design concepts, unfortunately none are available across all platforms." So Apple, the only company not supporting Vulkan on their platforms, is complaining that there isn't a cross-platform solution?

To be fair, they are proposing a JS API, not a native one.

Though I do agree.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#149

Post by nicc »

Apple proposing standards is ridiculous.

They only care about standards when they're basically forced to adopt/support them, or they're their own.

These are the same guys that:

- use lightning instead of mini USB

- removed the headphone jack

- are creating yet another proprietary connector for accessories

- don't allow their OS on third-party hardware

- only allow developing for iOS from macOS

- only allow apps on iOS if you install from the App Store

- only allow their own browser engine on iOS

- etc.

Everyone wants their own standard to be the standard, if they really cared about it they would contribute to Vulkan and create WebVulkan.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#150

Post by unsoundInput »

botverse wrote: post #126
fooey wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why Apple thinks they're going to have any sway over the people working on 3D graphics. Their hardware support for 3d graphics has been so awful for so long, I have a hard time imagining there's a very big user base they can leverage to get their way. So far as I can tell, what Apple wants here is almost completely irrelevant to the industry.

IMHO you are underestimating the leverage that Apple has given that macs are the tool of choice for most web developers. Apple is probably aware of this and this move looks like an anticipation.

IMHO you overestimate the use of macs as development machines, doubly so in parts of our industry that works on projects where high performance GPU APIs are actually needed (games, cad, simulations)
Post reply on HN