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I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

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Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#141

Post by SBCRec »

imgabe wrote: post #111
rdtsc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it have to be a and b only. Why not both or add c and d to the list. He brought a valid point it seems but it was "bitching and moaning". And gave him a binary choice to pick between.

What is the outcome of accepting that point? "You didn't complain when the government did worse things, so now you can't complain ever about anything?" The implication of accepting that logic would seem to be that we just give up. How does that help?

It is possible that this situation would add frustration for on lookers who notice that a large group of people accepted (or did not SEEM to care) about the killing and torturing of people, but all of a sudden are taking the high ground against a 90 day ban on immigration.

For SOME people it would be hard to accept the opinion of such people?

I find myself falling into this sometime... Is it a cognitive bias?

edit: Its hard for me to think about these issues with large fear based reactions from both sides and the hysteria the media is putting out.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#142

Post by dingaling »

Patient0 wrote: post #16
MisterWebz wrote: post #8

Bombing predominately Muslim countries, overthrowing governments and covert black sites where Muslims get tortured. These are things that are acceptable, but a 90-day ban on immigrants coming from war-torn countries, that's a step too far? Has everyone seriously lost their mind?

It's not just "a 90-day ban on immigrants coming from war-torn countries" - the fact that Christians from those countries are exempt makes it explicitly a "muslim ban".

> makes it explicitly a "muslim ban".

No, 'explicitly a Muslim ban' would say 'this is a ban on Muslims'.

Do consider that the list of proscribed countries is compiled between the Departments of Homeland Security and State, not by the President, and is published in the Federal Register. The fact that the majority on that list currently coincide with dominant Muslim populations might have been useful for Mr Trump's intent but is not guaranteed to persist.

The list was last updated in February 2016.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#143

Post by rtpg »

zimpenfish wrote: post #74
d3ckard wrote: post #68

Nice post, though there are some caveats. As a Pole (as some of you know, we do have some issues here too, though many would disagree) I feel at least a bit competent to give you a bit of advice, so you can get out of it better than we did. 1. Donald Trump is not your enemy, nor a problem. He is a manifestation of the problem, which is current state of your society and problems you have. Do not believe that you can j…

> It is quite likely, that if Democrats nominated Sanders, he would win with Trump. I haven't seen a single political analysis which shows a path for him to do that. Do you have any examples?

Massive Clintonite, but here's the way I see it:

Would Sanders have lost any state that Clinton won? Probably not.

Would Sanders have worked better in WI, Pennsylvania, Virginia? Probably.

Clinton was 77k votes from being President. Sanders might not have had as much institutional backing in the primaries, but considering that this seemed to have been decided on turnout, and Sanders had a strong grassroots following...

Basically no Clinton voter would not have voted Sanders in Sanders v Trump.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#144

Post by danso »

Ygg2 wrote: post #104
Angostura wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet people seemed to be awfully calm when Obama was droning weddings. No, no they weren't. However it was always pretty apparent that the administration took death of civilians seriously and did all it could to minimise it. That doesn't mean that there weren't screw-ups.

There were never mass protests on this scale. Unless, I missed a huge protest. What seems to me, like an outside observer, is that Obama's orders didn't ruin lives of Americans. Unlike these.

What's your point? That Americans care more about Americans?

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#145

Post by moultano »

kranner wrote: post #127
moultano wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people he's targeting now are Americans, which for better or worse people are much less willing to tolerate. Green card and visa holders are Americans.

I would have thought one is not American until one is a citizen.

That's not how Americans view it. The notion of belonging to a nation is very different in the New World, as best exemplified by this map. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jus_soli_world.svg...

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#146

Post by belorn »

verbify wrote: post #32
aedron wrote: post #5

You know what a lot of people consider worse than Donald Trump? The status quo. That's what I feel is missing in all this indignation - where were you before? The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home. All sold to the public with glib mark…

> he is an outsider to the established system He's a billionaire who inherited around $750 million. He didn't pay his taxes. His chief of staff was chairman of the Republican party. His cabinet have a combined net worth of $6 billion. If anyone represents the powers-that-be, he does. If anyone has a glib marketing campaign, it's the Trump presidency in claiming to be 'outsiders'. And if you think the political system…

To take a note from popular culture, I recall how the primary plot of House of cards - season 2, was the difference between power and money. Power is describe as created by favor and influence, while money mostly creates more money.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#147

Post by Mahn »

pzone wrote: post #80
geff82 wrote: post #6

Wonderfully written, giving my thoughts a word. For me and my wife, the USA, despite all their shortcomings, are a country we really want to live in. It stands for many good things. It is not a country you want to mess with, and we are fine with that. We embrace American culture, we love American companies, we so far respected American politicians. For stuff we as individuals are interested in (which might not be wha…

Damn I'm sorry. This is truly the opposite of making America great.

"Make America great again" never stood for making America actually great, it was all along an euphemism for "Make America go back in time 50 years again", and sadly a lot of people wanted just that.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#148

Post by danso »

imron wrote: post #137
devwastaken wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trying to generalize 350 Million individuals, it doesn't work that way. Outrage is rarely about the events, but about how much coverage those events get.

The question then becomes why were the bombings not getting as much or more coverage than a temporary visa ban? 5 of the 7 countries on the visa list are currently being bombed by the US [0]. It's no surprise then that these countries made it on to the Obama administration's list of countries that are sources of terror, which was used as the basis for Trump's visa ban. From a security perspective it's difficult to ar…

Maybe because the bombings were in faraway countries and had scant information about them? In a large enough city, people generally don't hear about murders that don't happen in their neighborhood nor receive outsized public coverage.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#149

Post by ooqr »

geff82 wrote: post #6

Wonderfully written, giving my thoughts a word. For me and my wife, the USA, despite all their shortcomings, are a country we really want to live in. It stands for many good things. It is not a country you want to mess with, and we are fine with that. We embrace American culture, we love American companies, we so far respected American politicians. For stuff we as individuals are interested in (which might not be wha…

As an American (and German as a second language speaker) I'm very sorry. I hope you will consider coming back to visit when this nonsense ends. I've lived here my whole life and have hardly had a chance to explore 10% of the land. We need good people. We need smart people. We (most of us) want you.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#150

Post by imron »

verbify wrote: post #22
MisterWebz wrote: post #8

Bombing predominately Muslim countries, overthrowing governments and covert black sites where Muslims get tortured. These are things that are acceptable, but a 90-day ban on immigrants coming from war-torn countries, that's a step too far? Has everyone seriously lost their mind?

Iran is not a war-torn country. And this doesn't just ban immigrants, it bans green-card and visa holders too.

They do however have that whole 'Death to America' thing going on:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iran-marks-revolution-deat...

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