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Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

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Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#141

Post by hackuser »

literallycancer wrote: post #106
hackuser wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can hold individuals responsible for misleading statements in financial disclosures notwithstanding the fact that individuals indisputably have free speech rights I'm not sure you can be effective if you do it reactively with lawsuits; who can afford to sue a Wall Street bank? You need regulations and rules. Also, the problem is not just misleading statements, but requiring that essential information is include…

>Also, the problem is not just misleading statements, but requiring that essential information is included, that it's expressed according to certain common standards, and that it's understandable to common people - not just to Wall Street bankers. Whether it's understandable doesn't matter, you only need to prove that they intentionally mislead you to get you to sign something detrimental to your interests. >There's…

> Whether it's understandable doesn't matter

There is a wide chasm between provably misleading and confusion or lack of information on the readers' side. That's why those communications are regulated, afaik.

> I'm sure there already are laws that prevent/penalize sellers from conning people.

Right, laws and regulations.

1) My point above was that the legal analysts said that the new corporate free speech rights, which the Supreme Court said were Constitutional rights (if I understand correctly), might invalidate those laws.

2) If you look at the recent history of Wall Street fraud, which among other things was the cause of the 2008 Great Recession, those laws and regulations haven't been effective enough.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#142

Post by hackuser »

rhizome wrote: post #37
hackuser wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The point is that corporations' new 'free speech rights' may interfere with that.

What new rights are you referring to, Citizen's United?

I think that was the case; I wasn't sure enough to name it though.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#143

Post by hackuser »

pliny wrote: post #69
czep wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> > You will always need the job more than Comcast will need you > Where is the evidence for this? It does not require a great deal of imagination to understand that a large corporation and single prospective employee are not equal parties. If you fail to get a job, you will starve. If Comcast fails to hire you, they most clearly will not face an existential crisis. This is most certainly not a free market at work.…

>It does not require a great deal of imagination to understand that a large corporation and single prospective employee are not equal parties. If you fail to get a job, you will starve. If Comcast fails to hire you, they most clearly will not face an existential crisis. Is Comcast the only company hiring people? If you don't get a job with Comcast you get a job with a different company. That is a market, many sellers…

> Is Comcast the only company hiring people? If you don't get a job with Comcast you get a job with a different company

The reality is, the job market is not that liquid. That's why people are terrified of losing their job.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#144

Post by hackuser »

meanduck wrote: post #107
czep wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, a free market is not defined by absence of regulation! Even fervent laissez-faire economists admit the necessity of appropriate regulations: contract enforcement rules, avoidance of monopolies, a system of law and order for handling disputes, etc. A free market is defined as an exchange where both sides have access to the same information.

> A free market is defined as an exchange where both sides have access to the same information. Its free as in freedom; to do anything. You are free to ask anyone about anything anytime. You can do anything except be physical aggresive (like states). > Even fervent laissez-faire economists admit the necessity of appropriate regulations: contract enforcement rules, avoidance of monopolies, a system of law and order fo…

That's the logical extreme, but that is not what free market economists actually say. The GP is accurate.

The free market is a great tool, but no tool is universal.

Why are we more concerned that we stick to an ideology - it's treated as a fundamentalist religion, treated as the solution to every problem and something with which any disagreement or deviation must be shot down - and not the people who are rich or poor, safe or suffering, educated or not, healthy or not, etc.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#145

Post by Retric »

icebraining wrote: post #27
Retric wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech already has well known limits. Copywrite is an obvious one. Anyway, salary history's are discriminatory which seems like something that probably already has case law.

*Copyright Discrimination is, AFAIK, only illegal if it's against or impacts workers on the basis of a few specific issues (race, sex, pregnancy, etc). I don't see salary histories fitting the bill, do you?

Considering there is a well known gender bias in terms of salary's the connection seems very clear.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over...

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#146

Post by mindcrime »

meanduck wrote: post #112
lend000 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have a very naive, non-nuanced, and absolutist view of the world. Already excited for the personal attacks and logical fallacies which await. > Are you serious? Do you really think Glassdoor is a legitimate authority for salary at companies? They do zero verification and are mostly dependent on people's honesty. Personally, I've signed up for no less than 10 Glassdoor accounts with companies I've never worked f…

HN is toast. Its being overrun by statists/socialists.

Yes it is. :-(

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#147

Post by lend000 »

unscaled wrote: post #140
meanduck wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If free-market cannot solve this nothing will. No actor (including Govt) has mental capicity to understand everything in this world. Free-market solves everthing best with most stability.

Does the free market really solves everything best? Did it solve Pi for very large number of decimal digits? Fermat's Last Theorem? Do you consult the free market when you want to decide what to do tomorrow? This maximalist position is crazy. Our experience shows that there are some things which are most efficiently solved by the (mostly) free market, but nobody managed to conclusively prove that the free market (and…

Similarly, be careful not to generalize this to all libertarians...

Most libertarians have varying stances that all develop from the non-aggression principle ("in a free society, you have the freedom to do whatever you want so long as it does not infringe on the rights of anybody else.") I have never heard a compelling argument against the NAP, because it can be interpreted so broadly. Even some of the pro-no-asking-questions people on this thread are using the NAP, if unwittingly, to justify their positions.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#148

Post by meanduck »

stephen_g wrote: post #139
meanduck wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If free-market cannot solve this nothing will. No actor (including Govt) has mental capicity to understand everything in this world. Free-market solves everthing best with most stability.

That's a statement of faith though (or ideology if you prefer), not a statement of fact. And I think it's built on shaky ground (such as requiring economic systems to tend towards equilibrium, which while perhaps a useful simplifying assumption a few hundred years ago, these days it's looking more like economic systems are actually better modelled as complex dynamic systems that don't necessarily happen in equilibriu…

> I think empirically history shows that lack of regulation can be as bad as too much regulation.

You cannot stop every bad things in the world. Otherwise you will end up creating more unstability and, as a result, worse things.

Libertarianism/Free-Market does not claim to iradicate all the bad things humans do to each other. It just that it will give you best fighting/winning chance.

> The reality is more of a balance, and black-and-white faith in the free market solving everything looks more and more to me at least as a dangerous delusion.

You got it opposite. Its the libertarians believe that world is too complex to be understood by one entity and better left to multiple entities (aka market). Libertarians wont go around claiming they understand the intention of every employers and ban them for asking certain questions.

Free-Market is smallest abstraction. Free-market can reduce to Statism if there is a demand. But Statism wont reduce to free-market.

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#149

Post by SilasX »

hackuser wrote: post #143
pliny wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It does not require a great deal of imagination to understand that a large corporation and single prospective employee are not equal parties. If you fail to get a job, you will starve. If Comcast fails to hire you, they most clearly will not face an existential crisis. Is Comcast the only company hiring people? If you don't get a job with Comcast you get a job with a different company. That is a market, many sellers…

> Is Comcast the only company hiring people? If you don't get a job with Comcast you get a job with a different company The reality is, the job market is not that liquid. That's why people are terrified of losing their job.

True, but shouldn't we be working on a more general solution to that problem rather than playing whack-a-mole with every possible way employers can abuse the power that comes from that illiquidity?

Re: Philadelphia Poised to Ban Employers from Asking Hires About Salary History

#150

Post by meanduck »

lend000 wrote: post #147
unscaled wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the free market really solves everything best? Did it solve Pi for very large number of decimal digits? Fermat's Last Theorem? Do you consult the free market when you want to decide what to do tomorrow? This maximalist position is crazy. Our experience shows that there are some things which are most efficiently solved by the (mostly) free market, but nobody managed to conclusively prove that the free market (and…

Similarly, be careful not to generalize this to all libertarians... Most libertarians have varying stances that all develop from the non-aggression principle ("in a free society, you have the freedom to do whatever you want so long as it does not infringe on the rights of anybody else.") I have never heard a compelling argument against the NAP, because it can be interpreted so broadly. Even some of the pro-no-asking-…

> in a free society, you have the freedom to do whatever you want so long as it does not infringe on the rights of anybody else.

Thats not NAP if rights is anything but right to be not physically assulted.

NAP is basically: do no (physical) harm.

You not only allowed to be aggressive in other ways (such as economically) but its relied upon to tackle overly powerful entities (like megacorps).

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