Live data from Hacker News

Uber Movement

movement.uber.com

141–146 of 146 posts

Re: Uber Movement

#141
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ponzi scheme is completely different to Uber so comparing the two isn't helpful. Uber is comparable to working as an freelance/indy contractor, in fact it's almost exactly the same. Uber has always been clear about how it works for the drivers, and not reading/understanding terms and conditions isn't an excuse for not taking responsibility for yourself. Their early marketing quite literally spelled out that this is…

First, I didn't compare them. I picked a clear example to make it clear where your proposed ethical standard breaks down. Second, having freelanced for years, Uber is nothing like that. Freelancing operates in a marketplace where you can shop your skills to many purchasers. Uber aspires to be a monopsony. Third, you indulge in pretty typical "blame the victim" logic. Uber is the more powerful party here. A driver has…

First, you're evaluating both against the same criteria - that's comparing.

Second, Uber is exactly like freelancing in a lot of ways - you get paid per job, you aren't entitled to paid leave, and running costs are your problem. Regardless of what you assume Uber aspires to be, the fact is there a whole range of ride sharing options out there so people can absolutely shop around.

Third - Blaming the victim requires a victim, for a victim to exist there also needs to be an offender. In your mind Uber is the offender because they are somehow the "more powerful party", which only really makes sense in a small number of cases. Uber is reliant on people signing on to drive for them, and unless said drivers are somehow indebted to Uber or contractually obligated to drive for them I fail to see how Uber has much power over them. Happy to change my mind on this if you can show me a situation in which Uber has some sort of excessive control over one or more of their drivers.

Uber "actively promote" car leasing in a small number of locations as an alternative to supplying your own car, and even then it's not the main message of their driver-focused advertising. At no point in signing up to be a driver will you be instructed to lease a car. Once again, people have all the numbers available and it's up to them to work out if it's financially viable for them to lease a car from Uber or from anyone else.

Re: Uber Movement

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should gay people be obligated to endure a similar level of harm to before they are allowed to marry? If not, why not?

The essence of your sophistry is to bring on highly symbolic and emotional subjects into the discussion so as to get some halo effect on your side of the argument, ala Godwin, while pretending all along to stay at the purely logical level and demanding that everyone does so, ignoring the blatant disrespect for those subjects that are orders of magnitude more important. In that regard, the question above is just a str…

Uber drivers have also been beaten in recent history - last week in Hyderabad, a couple of months ago in Mumbai. Anti-Uber terrorism is actually pretty common. I don't know if any drivers have died yet, but at this rate it's inevitable that one will.

http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/mumbai-taxi-d... http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/uber-cars-smashed-by-pro... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/26/uber-back... http://www.geekwire.com/2014/uber-protests-seattle/

Do we need to wait for the terrorists to kill an Uber driver before the parallel holds?

Re: Uber Movement

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The essence of your sophistry is to bring on highly symbolic and emotional subjects into the discussion so as to get some halo effect on your side of the argument, ala Godwin, while pretending all along to stay at the purely logical level and demanding that everyone does so, ignoring the blatant disrespect for those subjects that are orders of magnitude more important. In that regard, the question above is just a str…

Uber drivers have also been beaten in recent history - last week in Hyderabad, a couple of months ago in Mumbai. Anti-Uber terrorism is actually pretty common. I don't know if any drivers have died yet, but at this rate it's inevitable that one will. http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/mumbai-taxi-d... http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/uber-cars-smashed-by-pro... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/20…

Rosa Parks, gay people, now terrorists: are you going to enumerate all the dubious parallels you can make about this to try and hit an hypothetical moral blind spot? I'm not against moral debates, but if you're just throwing random cases trying to dumbfound someone and switching to another parallel when you can't seriously defend it any longer, well, you know how this is called on the Internet.

Re: Uber Movement

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression that much of America has the opposite problem. "The bus" is seen as something for the poor, which no self-respecting middle-class person would ride. The result is more cars on the road, more pollution, and less funding for public transit, since taxpayers are less willing to subsidize a system that's not for them. In places with good public transit, it is seen a something that directly benefits ev…

a bus in my city more than quadruples the time to get anywhere around or near my city. That means a 15minute car ride can take 1.5hours on a bus. Most people who can afford a car will opt out of spending 3 hours a day on a bus, but for people who don't have any other option, they are burdened with this on top of working long minimum wage hours, and walking their groceries 1/2 mile home in the freezing cold with their…

I too am sad that there are people who have to spend a large portion of their day working for minimum wage and on inefficient public transportation.

We're all different, born into different situations, in different geographical areas, with different brains, different athletic abilities (or not), and different opportunities in life. Some people are able to make a better life for themselves than the one they were born into and others squander their initial advantages and end up on skid row.

I expect people to realize their current economic situation, whatever the reason, and have kids only when they can afford to support them. Having sex may be mandatory, but having kids isn't. The easiest way to make a difficult economic situation worse is to have a kid.

Re: Uber Movement

#145
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I didn't compare them. I picked a clear example to make it clear where your proposed ethical standard breaks down. Second, having freelanced for years, Uber is nothing like that. Freelancing operates in a marketplace where you can shop your skills to many purchasers. Uber aspires to be a monopsony. Third, you indulge in pretty typical "blame the victim" logic. Uber is the more powerful party here. A driver has…

First, you're evaluating both against the same criteria - that's comparing. Second, Uber is exactly like freelancing in a lot of ways - you get paid per job, you aren't entitled to paid leave, and running costs are your problem. Regardless of what you assume Uber aspires to be, the fact is there a whole range of ride sharing options out there so people can absolutely shop around. Third - Blaming the victim requires a…

1) No, I did not compare them. Seriously, go back and read it; I am criticizing your moral standard, and gave a clear example to show where it fails. But in case you're still worried: no, Uber is not much like a Ponzi scheme.

2) That is not "exactly like freelancing". It is more akin to the company town approach to things, where the nominal structure of freedom is used to wash away moral responsibility. And if you talk to ex-Uber drivers, they do not feel there is a "whole range of options". Uber claims 87% market share, making them by far the dominant company. And the notion that Uber aspires to be a monopsony is not my assumption; investment analysts looking at Uber are pretty clear that Uber's market valuation only makes sense if they end up totally dominating things. Really, I freelanced for years, and two of my parents did as well. Trying to tell me that Uber is particularly like freelancing is pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining.

3) Uber is clearly the more powerful party in both the contract law sense [1] and in the market sense. There's no "somehow" here. They are the ones who write the contract. They are the ones who set the terms. They are the one who can unilaterally change the terms. They are the more powerful party. So get out of here with your "somehow".

4) And as to the leasing thing, I begin to be concerned that you're not arguing in good faith here. Uber literally helps people lease cars full time, so I think it's reasonable for people to read that as Uber suggesting that full time is reasonable. You after all brought up leasing.

More broadly, you're making the sort of tendentious, over-narrow arguments that were used to justify all sorts of exploitative behavior before labor laws required people to be either employees (therefore deserving of protection) or true independent contractors (who are professionals and can deal with things on their own because they operate in a functional marketplace with multiple clients). The last couple decades have seen businesses creeping around those barriers because it lets them take advantage of power asymmetries. I think Uber used a weak economy and a technological change to further undermine those barriers.

If you want to make a serious argument here, you can't just sweep Uber's enormous advantages under the rug. There are giant asymmetries in information, legal resources, negotiation skill, market power, financial resources, manipulative skill, and political clout. If you'd like to make a might-makes-right, fuck-the-workers case, just go for it. But if you're going to continue to make an argument about fairness, you have to account for power. Otherwise you're just ignoring a century of labor and employment law history.

[1] See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability for how power is relevant to contract law.

Re: Uber Movement

#146
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traffic is traffic. Yes only wealthy people's routes are being data mined. However, if someone is going from P to U, you will still learn that R to T is a hot spot. Those hot spots are common to everyone.

Except the potential issue is that while R to T is the worst spot according to the data, there is a route in a poorer neighbourhood, C to F, that is far worse and more deserving of improvement than R to T. And it may be hard to know in practice whether this effect is happening or not.

I understand and agree that you have a valid point, but what is your suggestion? Would you rather have no data?
Post reply on HN