Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? • Hacker News Board

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#141

Post by bcheung » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

tom_b wrote: post #66

Interesting that Bay Area hackers make more than local hackers when they relocate outside the Bay Area. FTA: A 2015 report by Hired found that when engineers from the Bay Area relocate to other areas, they out-earn engineers on the local market. Experience in the Bay Area seems to advance careers. Engineers moving from San Francisco to Seattle make an average of $9,000 more than others who get offers in Seattle. This…

A lot of employers look at previous salary to determine a base point for a new job. Coming from somewhere with a high salary makes it much easier to "justify" asking for more.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#142

Post by BinaryIdiot » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:50 PM UTC

_xhok wrote: post #137

As a college dropout, I have nowhere to go but the Bay Area, where many startups don't care much about credentials. Everywhere else does.

Not necessarily. Most technology companies I have found won't care too much about credentials. It all depends on what you're applying for. For instance a finance or insurance company may still care but the makers of New App 13 probably don't.

Now the government still cares. They care a great deal which kills prospects around the MD / DC / VA area. I was a contractor with only a 2 year degree so most companies were legally not allowed to charge more than about a junior level's worth when I first started. That was difficult. It was even more awkward when I was in charge of leading the technical side of a multi million dollar government project and my company couldn't bill for me beyond a Software Developer 2.

The Bay area mostly doesn't care BUT (and this is a HUGE BUT) many companies, like Google, make their hiring determinations based on the knowledge of very scholarly topics. So it's kinda indirect.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#143

Post by josh_carterPDX » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:50 PM UTC

As someone who grew up in the Bay Area, but moved to Portland about three years ago, I can tell you there is a stark difference in ecosystems. However, if you are a young up-and-coming programmer coming out of school, it makes complete sense to move to the Bay Area. If you're an Actor you move to L.A. to get your big break. If you're a programmer, you go to the Bay Area to work for a big firm that will help build your reputation and resume. For people later in their careers who have "been there/done that" it's less about what you can do for a company and more about what you can do for yourself. People later in their career tend to think more about their quality of life after spending years grinding it out in markets like the Bay Area. I know it's the big reason I moved to Portland. I love the tech community here. It's much more collaborative. The salaries may not match what you get in the Bay Area, but what I lose in salary I gain in not being stressed all the time.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#144

Post by rconti » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:50 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #34

twblalock wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is absolutely true. Your car, clothing, computers and gadgets, and most of your groceries will be a lower percentage of your discretionary income in the Bay Area than in most other places. Your housing and gasoline will cost more, and maybe your car insurance. However, the caveat is that housing is so expensive here that it's difficult to save up for a down payment on any kind of housing on a single enginee…

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

Your comment doesn't really make any sense, because there is no benefit to having a conforming loan. In fact, there are drawbacks. Recent data showed that jumbo loan rates were LOWER than the equivalent conforming loan. We bought with 10% down on a jumbo and because it's not federally-backed you don't have to pay PMI. Mortgage, taxes, insurance, that's it.

Also, I don't know anybody who got that kind of parental help or put $500k down.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#145

Post by AtticusTheGreat » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:50 PM UTC

dustinmoris wrote: post #100

So a recruiting agency who makes money from placing applicants in the Bay area, a place with a shortage of developers, writes an article to convince more developers to move to the Bay area ? Yeah, totally trust their data and the data they selected for this article!

I was going to mention this as well. It is worth making it clear that the article is written by a SF staffing company (which the article does do).

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#146

Post by mrkurt » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:52 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #39

mrkurt wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We lived in the Bay Area for 3 years. Prior to that, I agreed with you. Living there changed my mind. More of our salary went to the local economy than I expected. We have a bunch of kids, which amplified the effect, but I am astonished at how much money it took to not feel like we were struggling to stay above water. Babysitting, gas, food, clothing, activities were all extremely expensive. Even insurance was high.…

There's a stage-of-life effect. Bay Area is great for young people, where cost of living is a much lower proportion of income. All the excess goes straight into savings or discretionary consumer goods, where a Bay Area dollar is worth just as much as a Rust Belt dollar. It's much less great for a family, where you have additional food, housing, childcare, and health costs that rise along with cost of living.

I don't think that's entirely true. Housing and food are still the highest spending categories. Most of the excess goes to taxes, I think. Families just make it more obvious that's happening.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#147

Post by rconti » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:52 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #119

nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

Sorry, I live here. I have an average salary for my experience. I can barely save $20k/yr. My rent+util is about $2000/month. I live in a very /cheap/ 1-bedroom with creaky carpet floors, no insulation, and near train tracks that's far outside SF. (Belmont) Altogether I spend close to $4000/month if I don't do anything special. /Everything/ is more expensive in this region. Food is expensive for no apparent reason ot…

Huh. We just moved out of a 2/1 in Belmont, 1 block off El Camino next to the Safeway, where we were paying $2050. Sure, once you add utils in it's more, but not a lot more. Splitting the rent with my wife, my share was basically what I was paying in rent for a 'fancy' apartment I shared with a roommate in Santa Clara 10 years ago.

Granted, the house was a good deal, but should be able to swing a 2/1 for 2500 or so.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#148

Post by nkassis » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:53 PM UTC

DarkTree wrote: post #73

stephencanon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are going to transfer somewhere at the same pay rate, transfer somewhere cheaper and nicer than Seattle. Lots of options (I'm partial to northern New England, personally, as I like having proper winter).

I miss true seasons. Hoping to make it back East in the future. Any recommendations for NE other than Boston (which I like)?

Nashua has a lot of tech companies if you would be ok with a smaller urban area close enough to Boston to enjoy the city too.

Personally I just moved from Seattle to Boston. I'm conflicted on the two places. I really liked the outdoors areas in Seattle, commute was shorter and rent was also cheaper. But Boston has a lot of cool things too, food better, more interesting activities todo (other than outdoors but you can find it NH) and cycling infrastructure is poor compared to Seattle.

I'm not native of either place (from Montreal) so my experience is based on a few years of living in both.

Boston isn't exactly better in terms of winter sunlight that's for sure. Both are grayish in winters but summers are great (less humid in Seattle).

What did it for me is proximity to family. Being in the same timezone is huge.

Cool fact I learned recently, Boston-Cambridge-Nashua, MA-NH area has one lowest unemployment rate for any metro area at 2.6%.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#149

Post by balls187 » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:53 PM UTC

timothycrosley wrote: post #89

balls187 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Seattle companies don't understand cost of living?

Because you're working for the same company, in the Seattle office. Additionally, a lot of the difference is from income taxes that you no longer pay - something that companies take into account when making the initial offer, but not generally when doing transfers.

If you got a boost from transferring from San Fran to Seattle, overtime it would even out during merit pay-raises. Companies that are large enough to support development offices in both Seattle and Bay Area, are large enough to have a very formalized process for raises, which take into account your current pay vs the local market rate for that position.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#150

Post by develprofthngs » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:53 PM UTC

bandrami wrote: post #122

DC/NoVa is hurting for programmers. Particularly if you can get a clearance, there's no shortage of work out here, at a (somewhat) cheaper cost of living.

That's nice to hear. I've recently been contemplating moving from the DFW area to the VA area to be closer to family. Would also love some land/trees, which is lacking around here and becoming even harder to find.