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Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

nature.com

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Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#141

Post by truth_sentinell »

duaneb wrote: post #135
BowBun wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think saying 'computation will never be __________' is usually just wrong. We have a decent understanding now of the complexity of a human body, and there's no technical limitation on putting a ton of supercomputers together to do what OP suggested. It's more of a matter of waiting until it's economically worth it.

> We have a decent understanding now of the complexity of a human body I fundamentally disagree. We have models, sure, but they're approximative, not predictive, and I don't see any indication we'd be able to get prediction ever. It's very difficult to understand how biological approximation layered over chemical and physical approximation could give any benefit we get now from experimentation. Among other things, th…

Isn't that what we practically have from rats? a "subset" of the human brain? I cringe every time I see on some tech/science news some headline: "this is the reason you do this, or you think that", and then reading the study, you find out it was conducted on rats...

If we are extrapolating results from rats to humans, why can't we just simulate a rat brain and avoid torturing more? Probably because rats are cheap, and supercomputers, well, are super expensive.

I don't think it would be difficult to simulate a fully functional rat brain with state-of-the-art technology and bright people.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#142

Post by koder2016 »

d0lph wrote: post #35
Waterluvian wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's creepy and weird so we will consider a quick slaughter more ethical than experimentation because bacon and steak is so delicious. That's my guess.

I think the suffering of the animal is the primary issue.

It makes the meat harder?

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#143

Post by duaneb »

truth_sentinell wrote: post #141
duaneb wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have a decent understanding now of the complexity of a human body I fundamentally disagree. We have models, sure, but they're approximative, not predictive, and I don't see any indication we'd be able to get prediction ever. It's very difficult to understand how biological approximation layered over chemical and physical approximation could give any benefit we get now from experimentation. Among other things, th…

Isn't that what we practically have from rats? a "subset" of the human brain? I cringe every time I see on some tech/science news some headline: "this is the reason you do this, or you think that", and then reading the study, you find out it was conducted on rats... If we are extrapolating results from rats to humans, why can't we just simulate a rat brain and avoid torturing more? Probably because rats are cheap, an…

Sure, we might be able to simulate a rat brain at some level. I don't think we can do it with accuracy or precision, and certainly not use it as evidence of reality. You think the replication problem is bad now? It compounds when you build on bad evidence.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#144

Post by Falling3 »

oxide wrote: post #129
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

Are you saying comparing apples and oranges is the only way to effectively make your point? Dogs and livestock are quite different. We keep them around for entirely different reasons.

Certainly not an apples and oranges comparison. The distinction you've pointed to is in no way relevant to the point that was being made.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#145

Post by Falling3 »

honkhonkpants wrote: post #103
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

It doesn't have anything to do with cognitive dissonance. We allow ourselves to slaughter farm animals because we've benefit their species tremendously. The perpetual existence of domestic animal species is virtually assured. By contrast, we have done nothing for monkeys other than relentlessly destroy their habitats.

There is no ethical argument to be made for actions to benefit the species at the expense of the individuals it comprises.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#146

Post by honkhonkpants »

Falling3 wrote: post #145
honkhonkpants wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have anything to do with cognitive dissonance. We allow ourselves to slaughter farm animals because we've benefit their species tremendously. The perpetual existence of domestic animal species is virtually assured. By contrast, we have done nothing for monkeys other than relentlessly destroy their habitats.

There is no ethical argument to be made for actions to benefit the species at the expense of the individuals it comprises.

Sure there is.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#147

Post by azag0 »

oxide wrote: post #129
citricsquid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

Are you saying comparing apples and oranges is the only way to effectively make your point? Dogs and livestock are quite different. We keep them around for entirely different reasons.

There is a difference between inherent difference, and difference in the meaning we assign to things.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#148

Post by neurophenom »

noir_lord wrote: post #9
quantisan wrote: post #2

"The problem I see with this is that they implant monkey before paralysis and can use machine learning to build a model of the monkey's unique representation for walking. Then they paralyze and show the monkey's can adapt to only using their interface in 5 days. There's no way the mapping from neural activity to stimulation is generalizable..." [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/5c2ljz/brain_impla...

I have a spinal condition called Syringomyelia, at the moment apart from neuropathic pain it doesn't effect my ability to walk but down the line it could (with complete paralysis been a possible outcome). They could record the way my brain sends walk signals and if I end up paralysed they have the data to train the model. There are multiple spinal conditions that result in paralysis after not be been paralysed, not e…

I hadn't thought of that kind of application before. Thanks.

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#149

Post by eyko »

snowwrestler wrote: post #36
quantisan wrote: post #2

"The problem I see with this is that they implant monkey before paralysis and can use machine learning to build a model of the monkey's unique representation for walking. Then they paralyze and show the monkey's can adapt to only using their interface in 5 days. There's no way the mapping from neural activity to stimulation is generalizable..." [1] [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/5c2ljz/brain_impla...

This might still be useful medically. Let's guess that each person's unique representation for walking does not change, or changes slowly. That seems reasonable since it is at least partially based on the physical arrangement of neurons. We could bank it on a regular basis--recording via a device we wear around for a month every 5 years, for example. Then if we are paralyzed, the most recent recording is used to map…

As a person who knows next to nothing about the inner workings of the brain, the few books I read hinted of this. Apparently, learning changes the brain's physiology? anybody knows about good books on understanding how the brain works - as far as we know today?

Re: Brain implants allow paralysed monkeys to walk

#150

Post by imaginenore »

citricsquid wrote: post #67
Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume it's because monkeys are more intelligent than the animals we tend to eat; cows, chickens, sheep & pigs. Also, intentionally paralysing a creature, leaving it to live in that condition, and then performing experimental surgery/procedures on it is significantly different than slaughtering it. Whilst I appreciate the scientists mean well, and I do understand how this could benefit humanity; this sort of…

The intelligence argument is nonsense. Pigs are as intelligent as dogs. Describe the treatment of livestock (pigs, chickens, cows) but frame it as something that is happening to dogs and you'll drive hundreds of thousands of outraged meat eaters to signing a petition. The reason is cognitive dissonance, we're taught from the moment we can understand that it's okay to farm animals and very few people ever really think…

It's not nonsense. Monkeys are smarter than dogs, pigs, cows, chickens.
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