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Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

fearlesssalarynegotiation.com

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Re: Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

#141

Post by Whitestrake »

op00to wrote: post #126
redwards510 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They still wouldn't budge, so I got a counteroffer for $30k more than I was making, Getting a counteroffer is not the same as what the OP is suggesting. Using another job offer as a leverage for a raise is not recommended by most experts. Just google "Should i accept a counteroffer?". Mainly because you create bad blood at your current employer and you have to be ready to follow through on your threat. Also, that e…

When considering this tactic, ask yourself one question: "Do I work for psycopaths, or for (relatively) rational human beings?" If rational, go ahead and let them know the market rate of your labor by showing a competing offer, knowing full well that you're ready to take it and move on. It's only business. If you work for psychopaths, just take the offer and leave because fuck that shit.

I feel like any company large enough to have a significant HR department won't count as a "rational human being". They'll probably fall into the "psychopath" category by virtue of dispassionately and emotionlessly assessing how much of a liability you are to them if you're willing to demand they make counter-offers.

Re: Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

#142

Post by Tom1971 »

jaimex2 wrote: post #120
nikatwork wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being in that situation is so satisfying. Boss: HR won't give me the money for your raise. Employee: I quit. I've been offered more money elsewhere. Boss: No wait actually I can get that extra money Employee: Too late, kthxbai

+1 Never take a counter offer. You'll get more pay but you're stuck in the same company run by the same narrow minds.

That's a rather narrow minded way to thinking about the issue.

I've accepted a counter offer twice, and both times I was glad that I did.

There could be many other reasons for a company not paying what you can get somewhere else. A very trivial one is the yearly update cycle: that may happen in January whereas you get an offer in June. Companies that hire don't align to the schedule of your current one.

And hiring companies inherently know asking somebody to quit and somewhere else carries a risk that needs some amount of kind of reward.

Hell, how can one personally even know what he/she is worth? There are so many factors at play. It'd be narrow minded to expect pricing perfection on something nobody really can get right.

Re: Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

#143

Post by Tom1971 »

Whitestrake wrote: post #141
op00to wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When considering this tactic, ask yourself one question: "Do I work for psycopaths, or for (relatively) rational human beings?" If rational, go ahead and let them know the market rate of your labor by showing a competing offer, knowing full well that you're ready to take it and move on. It's only business. If you work for psychopaths, just take the offer and leave because fuck that shit.

I feel like any company large enough to have a significant HR department won't count as a "rational human being". They'll probably fall into the "psychopath" category by virtue of dispassionately and emotionlessly assessing how much of a liability you are to them if you're willing to demand they make counter-offers.

In a large HR department, chances are you're dealing with somebody for whom you're just a number instead of somebody has a personal grudge.

Nothing personal, just business is the attitude you want when handling something as trivial as a salary negotiation.

Re: Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

#144

Post by LouisSayers »

In my experience you'll be much better off just quitting and joining other companies, then going onto contracting.

Here's my own person experience in just a few years:

1. Start off as a Grad on 30k GBP

2. One and half years later quit, onto another company at 48k GBP (>50% pay rise)

3. One and half years later quit. Do own thing for a year. Then go onto contracting at equivalent of 75k GBP (>50% pay rise)

So in summary, in the span of a 4 year period, I've gone from 30k GBP to 75k GBP.

There's definitely an upper limit on this of course. I think if I were to get out of startup land again now and focus on my salary I'd have to head to a different market (currently in Australia). I'd either aim for contracting in the UK where I know you can easily get 400-600 GBP per day, or the US where salaries for devs just seem higher.

I'm playing long game though, taking the startup route. So I'll either be collecting change from the streets in a few years, or hopefully I'll be well ahead of the game. Will have to wait and see...

Re: Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

#146

Post by logicfiction »

amorphid wrote: post #13
redwards510 wrote: post #5

If only things were so easy. Our department gets allocated $XX,XXX each year for raises. My boss has to split that among eight people. If I were to get a 5% bump like OP recommends, other people would get nothing. Sounds like typical D-grade manager motivation. "Everyone work yourself to death and I might throw you a bone after one year!" I'd rather give up that 5% to have a sane work-life balance. It's common knowle…

It is worth nothing that another way to get a raise is to earn a promotion :)

That might depend on the type of promotion. It's actually becoming shockingly common these days (at least in the US?) to not give raises on promotions anymore.

Re: Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

#147

Post by pitaj »

LouisSayers wrote: post #144

In my experience you'll be much better off just quitting and joining other companies, then going onto contracting. Here's my own person experience in just a few years: 1. Start off as a Grad on 30k GBP 2. One and half years later quit, onto another company at 48k GBP (>50% pay rise) 3. One and half years later quit. Do own thing for a year. Then go onto contracting at equivalent of 75k GBP (>50% pay rise) So in summa…

It sounds fairly logarithmic or logistic to me.

Re: Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

#148

Post by pitaj »

hueving wrote: post #137
nachtigall wrote: post #49

4. Organize with (some of) your co-workers, maybe join a union. Act together instead of fighting for higher wages on your own. Seriously, the moment you are on a "secret" one-to-one with your boss you have already lost. There's reason why unions have always bargained collectively, and there's also reason why bosses have always tried to avoid this.

I'm against them and I'm not a manager. They encourage stagnation due to rewarding seniority instead of contributions. If everyone in the union gets X% (with or without a seniority bonus), why would anyone give two shits about putting an effort in beyond the minimum. You want a taste of what a software dev union is like in the US? Join a government organization where income has almost no correlation with performance…

This is great comment. Not necessarily because you're right (you are, at least regarding the current state of things) but because you bring up the biggest problem with unions in their current state.

People don't have an issue with collective bargaining, they have a problem with the other negative effects of unions.

Re: Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

#149

Post by bcbrown »

byoung2 wrote: post #50
_puk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question, did that affect your working relationship with your manager / their manager, or did it work out well long term for everyone?

Honest question, did that affect your working relationship with your manager / their manager, or did it work out well long term for everyone? It worked out well for all parties, depending on how you look at it. Management was a little out of touch with market rate salaries, since they weren't tech guys (once the CEO referred to engineering as "black magic" since he didn't understand it). So while they were shocked at…

> A few months later I renegotiated to have the bonus removed and the base salary increased to $175k.

What was your negotiating strategy here? Did you just say "I'm going to make the bonus anyway, please let's just write it in now", or was it more "I might leave if we can't work this out"?

Re: Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs

#150

Post by hiram112 »

pitaj wrote: post #148
hueving wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm against them and I'm not a manager. They encourage stagnation due to rewarding seniority instead of contributions. If everyone in the union gets X% (with or without a seniority bonus), why would anyone give two shits about putting an effort in beyond the minimum. You want a taste of what a software dev union is like in the US? Join a government organization where income has almost no correlation with performance…

This is great comment. Not necessarily because you're right (you are, at least regarding the current state of things) but because you bring up the biggest problem with unions in their current state. People don't have an issue with collective bargaining, they have a problem with the other negative effects of unions.

I would be happy with an organization that would group together to avoid the use of body shops that push wages down across the board.

The things that are happening Disney, Edison, and a lot of other places shouldn't be tolerated by software devs collectively.

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