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In Greece, Property Is Debt

nytimes.com

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Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#141

Post by hx87 »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #48
nannal wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is the rare case when refactoring just doesn't cut it, we need a complete rewrite of the whole thing. Does anyone have access to the world government dev environment? I mean the code may need re-writing but we could probably use the same infrastructure.

>Does anyone have access to the world government dev environment The banks with super admin privileges to create money in their databases do.

If everybody had an account with the central banks, sure. For now the SUs only have access to the major-banks sandbox, and playing around in this sandbox does nothing except cause asset inflation.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#142

Post by nugget »

kkapelon wrote: post #126
flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

Numbers don't really say anything if you don't explain who decides them. Here are two scenarios for you 1)I live in Greece and get 400 Euros a month and barely break even. I live in a house (inherited by my parents) that would fetch probably 90.000 in the market. Government says that it really costs 300.000 euros. I get taxed for it even though I cannot really afford it. 2)I am unemployed and live with my parents. Th…

Wouldn't the solution in either case be to sell the house and move somewhere you can find a job?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#143

Post by krona »

tzmudzin wrote: post #128
krona wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the downvotes? "Elections change nothing. There are rules." -- Wolfgang Schäuble (in reference to the election of a Greek government in 2015)

Do you suggest the new government should be allowed to disrespect the obligations and commitments of the previous one, just because it's newly elected? [Well, in a way, they are free to do so -- at the risk of losing every bit of credibility as a debtor... What Schäuble pointed out is: if you want more money, respect your obligations]

Absolutely it does. There are good reasons why respect for the principle of equal rights among nations is enshrined in international treaties. Germany has been the biggest benefactor of that, and a German minister shouldn't ride roughshod over the will of the people of another nation.

> at the risk of losing every bit of credibility as a debtor

This mentality about debtor and creditor nations within the EU will eventually destroy the Euro.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#144

Post by chiph »

Spooky23 wrote: post #113
liotier wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy performance certificate, non-toxicity certificate, surface certificate, non-pledge certificate... The basics of a real estate sale in France - they make the transaction more transparent and I'm glad they are mandatory, both as a former buyer and a former seller... They remove a lot of the friction that distrust creates. Framing it as "red tape" that “threaten to turn the country into an endless ‘property grave…

That statement is a little dramatic, but these sorts of things have severe impact. Upstate NY is a great example -- property taxes are oppressive, and while property does sell, the value is kneecapped because the tax costs are so high. In my city, a house in a nice area valued at $200k (which is a 3-4 BR, 1-2 BA house) is taxed around $6000-6500. So a typical homebuyer who needs a mortgage automatically loses around…

$200k house, $6k tax bill, so about 3% a year on the value of your home. That's similar to what you'd pay in urban Texas where property taxes are the primary way that state/local government gets funded. Only NY State has income tax on top of this (plus city income tax if you live in/near NYC), and Texas does not.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#145

Post by [deleted] »

saiya-jin wrote: post #66

> "And yet, the leftist government recently proposed adding further documents and costs to selling or renting property — a compulsory “energy performance” certificate and a civil engineer’s assurance that there are no illegal constructions." Not an expert, nor a citizen/resident, but these seem like a basic things to do. Parents back home had to provide same things recently just for renovation, and much more. There a…

[deleted]

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#146

Post by emptyfile »

saiya-jin wrote: post #66

> "And yet, the leftist government recently proposed adding further documents and costs to selling or renting property — a compulsory “energy performance” certificate and a civil engineer’s assurance that there are no illegal constructions." Not an expert, nor a citizen/resident, but these seem like a basic things to do. Parents back home had to provide same things recently just for renovation, and much more. There a…

Seriously, I live in Croatia (so not exactly a paragon of bureaucratic efficiency, quite the opposite) and recently bought an apartment.

Can't imagine how I would do that if energy certificates were optional, I would have to bring with me a construction engineer while looking for apartments?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#147

Post by hx87 »

SamUK96 wrote: post #34

This is what happens when you allow uncontrolled and unregulated asset transfers. There's a reason that pretty much any index/stock in the world freezes when the daily drop exceeds a certain threshold (i.e. Japan, JPX, has a limit of usually ~7% [1]). This prevents panic selling and even though seems like a "delaying-the-inevitable-drop" cop-out, it really does work. Greece Government are stupid as hell for letting e…

OTOH, if you impose high holding costs while disallowing trading, you will have either foreclosures, property abandonment or squatting on a massive scale, which are arguably worse.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#148

Post by hx87 »

thght wrote: post #87

This is not only about Greece, a house is a basic necessity of live, wether you can find a job or not. Governments should cap the price per square meter so a house will always be available for everyone. As it is now you cannot really buy a house, you need a mortgage for live and work your entire life to pay interest. If this continues every house in the entire world will become unending debt and ever more unattainabl…

Price controls are a terrible solution except in special and temporally limited circumstances, e.g. total war. Much better to make construction as easy and cheap as possible, i.e. no quantitative limits on it.

> This is also why basic income could never work in practice, as the house prices keep increasing you'd also need to increase the basic income. And where goes the money? Indeed, to the rich property owners..

If that actually happens, then it's pretty simple to fund basic income entirely from property taxes.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#149

Post by branchless »

kkapelon wrote: post #126
flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

Numbers don't really say anything if you don't explain who decides them. Here are two scenarios for you 1)I live in Greece and get 400 Euros a month and barely break even. I live in a house (inherited by my parents) that would fetch probably 90.000 in the market. Government says that it really costs 300.000 euros. I get taxed for it even though I cannot really afford it. 2)I am unemployed and live with my parents. Th…

Ah won't anyone think of the unskilled person who inherited money and wants to continue to live well? Let this guy stay on this land and make the people who worked hard pay!

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#150

Post by pjc50 »

emptyfile wrote: post #146
saiya-jin wrote: post #66

> "And yet, the leftist government recently proposed adding further documents and costs to selling or renting property — a compulsory “energy performance” certificate and a civil engineer’s assurance that there are no illegal constructions." Not an expert, nor a citizen/resident, but these seem like a basic things to do. Parents back home had to provide same things recently just for renovation, and much more. There a…

Seriously, I live in Croatia (so not exactly a paragon of bureaucratic efficiency, quite the opposite) and recently bought an apartment. Can't imagine how I would do that if energy certificates were optional, I would have to bring with me a construction engineer while looking for apartments?

In England, people somehow managed to defeat proposals for energy certificates and mandatory structural information; so, yes, every potential buyer has to commission their own structural survey. People usually ignore the energy question or guess.
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