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Music theory for nerds

eev.ee

141–150 of 390 posts

Re: Music theory for nerds

#141
> C major is identical to A minor, and I don’t understand why we need both.

Well, an orange and a carrot are the same color, but does that mean we don't need both? These two keys have the same signature, and that's it. To say they are identical is false.

> I don’t know anything about music.

You got that right.

> I suppose it’s possible to change the sound of an entire piece of music just by changing the key signature, but does anyone actually do that?

Only about every major composer who has ever lived. Look through any Beethoven sonata and see all the key signature changes throughout.

Your article didn't even hit one of the most important parts of music, modulation, which if you understood it would make many of your other confusions go away.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#142
post #141

> C major is identical to A minor, and I don’t understand why we need both. Well, an orange and a carrot are the same color, but does that mean we don't need both? These two keys have the same signature, and that's it. To say they are identical is false. > I don’t know anything about music. You got that right. > I suppose it’s possible to change the sound of an entire piece of music just by changing the key signature…

> > I don’t know anything about music.

> You got that right.

This is gratuitous negativity. It adds nothing to your post except to emphasize disdain for the author. It's especially uncivil in response to the author's own statement of humility.

This post would be better (and much more constructive) if you explained (or linked to an explanation of) how C major and A minor are different, or how the concept of modulation dispels the author's confusions.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#143

> Also, this notation has a slight problem. That problem is that sheet music is terrible. > This has got to be some of the worst jargon and notation for anything, ever. I hear it bandied around in these articles that music notation is awful. Can someone explain to me why? I'm not much of a musician, but I can work my way through sheet music if necessary, or write it when I want to. I don't remember what it was like t…

    > I hear it bandied around in these articles that music
    > notation is awful. Can someone explain to me why?
I've played a lot with alternatives, and disagree. But I can explain why people might object to it, but then defend the settlement.

There's so much harmonic music in our lives that most people take harmony for granted. Separately, someone who was interested in only a subset of western music might decide that western notation was unnecessarily complex. e.g. piano can be represented with a role, single-voice instruments can be represented with solfa, guitar with chord sheets.

The Bobby McFerrin video shows us that human music starts with rhythm and a single-voice pentatonic melody.

Western music is many layers more complex than this.

* Uses a standard template of notes (diatonic scale, aka set of black and white notes on the keyboard). Hence, instead of five tones, we have 12.

* Polyphony/harmony. Multiple voices singing against one another.

* Due to the way the tuning of this scale has been standardised, you can play a piece in the key in C, or in F#, and it is recognisably similar. This is a non-trivial achievement, and is post-Bach.

* The "circle of fifths" and the standardised system of tuning that has been in place since Bach allows us to modulate (change key) during the course of a piece. This is a theoretical accomplishment that builds on the standardised tuning.

The optimisations here are so competently selected and executed that "people" take all of this for granted. But Harmony is a product of engineering.

Western sheet music has evolved to give us mastery over harmony. Tracking harmony requires us to track at least two dimensions: (1) time; (2) chords that sit within it at any point. Then, the system needs to scale to multiple voices, and support complex metadata such as vocal words, note ornaments and musical dynamics.

Western notatation is a strong settlement for capturing harmonic music, and it's optimised for the player's readability. (Consider the rule that says you are not allowed to have a crotchet rest across the middle of a 4/4 bar; you'd have to have two semicrotchets and a tie)

Where I think music could be improved is if it were easier to compose. An analogy: consider if you wrote papers using PostScript. Can it be done? Yes. Is the output effective? Yes. But what you really want is a composition-oriented markup that then renders to the form.

I'm currently playing with an approach to composition that feels like literate programming. You build up melody, voices and chords using ascii representations like solfa and figured bass, and a DSL to glue the elements together.

Having done this, I'll want to render it. Render to Clojure/Overtone so it can be played by a computer; render to sheet music so an orchestra could perform it.

My opinion is that there is only glaring flaw in the western musical system: we count notes from one rather than zero. The thing we call "a third" should have been called "a second". But it's a superficial flaw, an awkwardness that makes thinking about intervals more difficult than they should be but is otherwise harmless.

    > why do you think that the chromatic scale is correct? 
It's not that it's correct so much as that it allows you to do certain things that aren't otherwise possible. The key thing is modulation. As you step away from the current chromatic-scale settlement, you lose the ability to modulate between keys.

Consider this alternative-world settlement. All composers draft all music by pulling levers. The levers drive a pipe organ. It has a strict tonal scale (the seven white notes on the piano, no black notes). The tones are the same as they are currently: B to C is a half tone, C to D is a whole tone. As they play into this pipe organ, the notes are punched into a piano roll, and it can be played back, or a choir can read it.

In this world, you could represent the early catholic church music, although you'd have to play some of it at a different key than it was originally played. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neume)

You could get nice harmony going. You could perform the Tallis canon both as a piece with chords (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PqV-iL44wk) or as a true canon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMNMKxOyGq8).

In this sparse world, you'd write stuff in alternative musical modes to get variety. As they did. You could arrange the Third Mode Melody. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8oKEx1-J1w) But you wouldn't get the consoling resolution on the final note.

Now let's consider an evolution. Say you allowed the levers to swing left and right a bit so that you could get blues notes by leaning on levers to move them to side or the other. The world we're in here is kind of equivalent to the renaissance. You could perform a fair bit of Palestrina and Victoria on this instrument.

But the Monteverdi Vespers and everything after it is impossible. Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Jazz, Beatles, Coldplay and everything in between rely on extensive use of chromatic scale, particularly for modulation.

Bach lived after the main transition, but is interesting because the tuning settlement hadn't been worked out yet. He experimented with the frequency differences between the notes. Some say that (some of) his pieces play better if you tune your keyboard for "mean temperament" rather than the now-standard "even temperament".

The rise of electronic music gives us room to go back and play with these fundamentals a lot. The chromatic scale can be challenged: you could design a microtonal scale that followed the same rules but had more subtlety, without needing a craftsman capable of producing a piano keyboard with extra black keys, or someone to play it. You can represent complex rhythms without relying on a human that can perform them. And you can change the temperament of a piece while it's playing.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#144
In case anyone is searching for a really smart, modern method for learning music theory, this is it: https://www.hooktheory.com

The author devised his own system for visually representing notes, it makes it much easier to understand things like scale degrees and relative notation (and thus the theory around famous harmonies, melodies, etc).

I think music tools are in desperate need for improvement... Starting with notation, which is still a bit akin to forcing programmers to go straight to Assembly. Little is gained from it as most people just completely give up and then go on to live the rest of their musical lives "in the dark", without knowing how to read and write at all. This can actually be good for some but I'm sure it hinders the creativity of a lot more.

I think we also need way better digital instruments... That make it easier to stay on scale (or to modulate, etc -- whatever the mood is), for instance, allowing people to just play away which is what actually matters.

I've spent countless hours of my life learning scales on several different instruments and think a lot of that was wasteful. More often than not I'm just trying to stay in a given key anyway, nothing fancy...

Instruments really need better interfaces :)

Re: Music theory for nerds

#145
Why is this at the top of HN? While the author is right that western music notation has shortcomings, almost none of the (admittedly poorly understood) reasons they list are a factor in that.

> [Key signatures] completely obscure the relationship between the pitches, though.

Nope, they exactly allow the notes to show scale degree relationships. Without key signatures, music in any major scale other than C would be very confusing as the regular scale notes would be marked with accidentals.

> I don’t think I entirely understand this, because it still seems so convoluted to me. You have to mentally translate that C to a C, and then translate the C to however that particular note is actually played on your instrument.What does this accomplish?

Same. Because at some point a player stops playing by translating the exact pitch to a fingering (for example), they start playing on a scale. They practice the scale by itself, and other pointless "music" in that key and it's the fingerings of the scale that they learn. I.o.w. this system allows them to think at one higher level of abstraction.

> I’m a bit out in the weeds from here on. C major is identical to A minor, and I don’t understand why we need both.

This whole section reads "I don't understand this so the world must be stupid to have come up with it." Rest assured that C-major and A-minor are not the same. Yes they have the same pitches, but a different starting point (root). A note's relationship to the root of they key of the piece is much more important than the exact pitch. Fur Elise in C-major would sound just like it sounds in A-major. Not A-minor.

> I only looked into this because I want to compose some music, and I feel completely blocked when I just don’t understand a subject at all.

Here's the bright point: You don't need to understand notation to compose music. Just understand scales and chords (and their progressions), and use whatever notation makes sense for you.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#146

The article says that the "human ear loves ratios", but doesn't dig deeper into why. Here's my two cents. First of all, let's focus on harmony (notes played at the same time) as opposed to melody (notes played one after another). What sounds good in a melody is quite culture-dependent, but there are reasons why harmony is more universal. Second, let's focus on sounds that are produced by something long and narrow. In…

The really wierd thing is that intervals such as a fifth, major and minor thirds, and sevenths occur regularly in bird song, whale song, and a bunch of other non-human sounds. I assume that evolution favours constructive interference as the communication will generally travel further, but I also feel that human music is in some way influenced by our pre-lingual history.

In some way our brains are hard wired to appreciate and recognise these intervals, and to infer certain emotions from them.

Re: Music theory for nerds

#148

In case anyone is searching for a really smart, modern method for learning music theory, this is it: https://www.hooktheory.com The author devised his own system for visually representing notes, it makes it much easier to understand things like scale degrees and relative notation (and thus the theory around famous harmonies, melodies, etc). I think music tools are in desperate need for improvement... Starting with no…

> I think we also need way better digital instruments... That make it easier to stay on scale (or to modulate, etc -- whatever the mood is), for instance, allowing people to just play away which is what actually matters.

I'm not sure what new stuff has come out in the last few years, but Ableton Push is exactly what you're describing. It's a grid where you can select a key, scale, and tone, and then you can apply effects in series / parallel. The notes in the scale light up. There's a bunch of other stuff you can do as well.

https://youtu.be/0CdMvkBOUgs?t=69

Re: Music theory for nerds

#149

Why is this at the top of HN? While the author is right that western music notation has shortcomings, almost none of the (admittedly poorly understood) reasons they list are a factor in that. > [Key signatures] completely obscure the relationship between the pitches, though. Nope, they exactly allow the notes to show scale degree relationships. Without key signatures, music in any major scale other than C would be ve…

> Nope, they exactly allow the notes to show scale degree relationships. Without key signatures, music in any major scale other than C would be very confusing as the regular scale notes would be marked with accidentals.

Presumably, they have in mind to straightforwardly eliminate BOTH key signatures and accidental markers; e.g., a staff in which adjacent positions are always one semitone apart, and all pitches and intervals between them are thus always directly indicated without need for reference to a key signature for decoding.

There are pros and cons to this scheme (as it privileges indicating pitch relationships over, as you put it, "scale degree" relationships), but at any rate, it would not involve confusing accidentals, nor any significant difference between working in C major scale vs. any other (even less bias in favor of C major than the current system!).

Re: Music theory for nerds

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this over again, it seems like the author's not yet fully wrapped their mind around "big picture" stuff like keys, chords, basic compositional structure, etc. It's an... interesting choice to write a piece proclaiming that musical notation is absurd when you're only a beginner.

Is there an article/book/video anyone can recommend that explains the advantages of modern staff notation in terms that beginners can understand? In particular, I think everyone would agree that it's it's much harder for beginners to hunt and peck sheet music in modern staff notation than it is for a novice typist to type words on a QWERTY keyboard. (At least when the sheet music is written in any key except C major,…

I'm working on a blog post now which I hope will answer that question (at least, in very general terms).
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