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The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

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Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#141

Post by SiVal »

Animats wrote: post #86
Kroniker wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite Terrence McKenna quotes: "Once you've gotten the message, hang up the phone." Hallucinogens may deliver you the message, but you need to know to take it once you have it, and not go crazy taking more and more. I have a friend who fell down that rabbit hole. Doesn't seem to end well.

In "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman", Feynman describes using LSD at the encouragement of John Lily, who claimed it would improve his thinking. Feynman tried it, and thought he'd solved a problem he was working on. As he was preparing to give a talk on the solution, he realized that he hadn't solved the problem; he'd only hallucinated that he had solved the problem. He was furious. That ended his experimentation wi…

I loved that story in the book, because it was so much like my own experience with simple dreaming. We often hear about the brilliant creativity of our dreaming minds and the deep answers that await us if we'll pay attention to our dreams. I figured that was safer than drugs, so I kept a dream journal, because it was supposed to help you remember your dreams better (it does) and unleash the genius of your unconscious.

Over time, I had several instances of making some progress on a question (programming logic design, for example) as I was on the border of awake and asleep, but these were essentially just the result of awake-enough thinking through of a problem as I lay there just before I fell asleep.

But I did have a few instances of real solutions in my sleep that I thought were major breakthroughs. The funny thing was that almost the instant I woke up, I saw fatal flaws in those "breakthroughs" that had been completely invisible to the triumphant, celebrating genius that I was in the dream. Literally seconds after regaining consciousness, I would see how ridiculous my brilliant idea was because of something I had completely overlooked in my dream state but was instantly obvious in my waking state. (Waking up literally does bring some crucial part of your reasoning back online.)

After a few of these, I put away the dream journal with a chuckle and got another good laugh when I read about Feynman's experience with LSD. After my own experience, I can easily imagine how you might feel as though your intoxicated mind was somehow operating on a "higher plane" when cut free of the restraints of reality, but it doesn't mean that what you discover there is of any real value back in the world of reality.

As much fun as it sounds, with no benefits beyond the entertainment value and the serious risks involved--a top student and mentor of mine back in school raised his consciousness so high that he lost the ability to feed or dress himself in the real world ever again--I'll just stick to actual consciousness.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#142

Post by chillwaves »

Nursie wrote: post #40
monktastic1 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. If the MAOIs are extracted from the caapi, leaving out the other alkaloids, even the uncomfortable physical side effects can be avoided.

Ah but that's working around the 'plant spirit' and all that other stuff, you won't have an 'authentic' or 'real' experience and the hipsterswill laugh at you....

What's the point of the tone of your comment? Some people would find the processed drug to lack the "authentic" experience of what is found in nature. Doubt anyone really cares. Sounds more like a caricature to me.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#143

Post by NotSammyHagar »

civilian wrote: post #62
Kroniker wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite Terrence McKenna quotes: "Once you've gotten the message, hang up the phone." Hallucinogens may deliver you the message, but you need to know to take it once you have it, and not go crazy taking more and more. I have a friend who fell down that rabbit hole. Doesn't seem to end well.

I agree. I got the message, and hung up the phone. My friend is also have difficulty leaving the path. A couple of months ago my buddy & I got some urgent texts from him-- he had taken a really large dose of LSD and ended up spending the next 12 hours in a emergency room's psych ward. I think that part of the reason that we have this B.S. propaganda around psychedelics (i.e. "They're the key to enlightenment!") is th…

> it can be pretty hard to encourage people to try drugs

I think that in our society we have a problem with people taking too many drugs already. Deadly smoking of tobacco is decreasing but still too common (killed my mom). Booze and coffee are things people tolerate but use to adjust their mood. Pot seems to finally becoming accepted by law abiding society. But do we need to encourage more than this? As a parent of a teenager who is generally tolerant of such things, I'm suddenly feeling I want society to have less drugs ;-)

Seriously, would society be improved with more psychedelics?

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#144

Post by fulafel »

Animats wrote: post #86
Kroniker wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite Terrence McKenna quotes: "Once you've gotten the message, hang up the phone." Hallucinogens may deliver you the message, but you need to know to take it once you have it, and not go crazy taking more and more. I have a friend who fell down that rabbit hole. Doesn't seem to end well.

In "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman", Feynman describes using LSD at the encouragement of John Lily, who claimed it would improve his thinking. Feynman tried it, and thought he'd solved a problem he was working on. As he was preparing to give a talk on the solution, he realized that he hadn't solved the problem; he'd only hallucinated that he had solved the problem. He was furious. That ended his experimentation wi…

There are anecdotes about successful breakthroughs as well. The more famous one is Francis Crick coming up with the double-helix of DNA while on LSD.

Then there's a well known psych experiment from the 60s that claims pretty good results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelics_in_problem-solvin...

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#145

Post by psyc »

fulafel wrote: post #144
Animats wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman", Feynman describes using LSD at the encouragement of John Lily, who claimed it would improve his thinking. Feynman tried it, and thought he'd solved a problem he was working on. As he was preparing to give a talk on the solution, he realized that he hadn't solved the problem; he'd only hallucinated that he had solved the problem. He was furious. That ended his experimentation wi…

There are anecdotes about successful breakthroughs as well. The more famous one is Francis Crick coming up with the double-helix of DNA while on LSD. Then there's a well known psych experiment from the 60s that claims pretty good results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelics_in_problem-solvin...

I learned OpenGL during an LSD trip. My subjective experience was that the information just went in without any resistance. I've since written a lot of OpenGL code, and I can run it all and see that it objectively works. Of course, I've learned hundreds of other things without taking any drugs. But, again subjectively, it's usually more incremental and seems like more of a struggle with attention and comprehension. At least, I can say that I didn't get anything wrong with OpenGL. I didn't hallucinate that I learned it. The programs I wrote immediately following the trip worked fine.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#146

Post by Fraterkes »

empath75 wrote: post #126
oldmanjay wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the sheer amount of bullshit surrounding these drugs leaves me with a duty to take heavy doses of psychedelics and proudly learn nothing but "boy that was fun"

Yeah, there is a lot of bullshit around psychedelics, and it's totally possible to take them and just have fun, but if you're interested in the way the mind works and how we piece together reality from our perceptions, there is a lot to work with there. I think where people go wrong is in thinking that drug experiences show you some truth that's hidden from you in normal life. It really just shows you how ill equippe…

I think the idea of seeing some hidden truth, comes simply from seeing the world from some other perspective. I guess the problem people have with that is that people who take drugs talk like their epiphanies are only obtainable by doing drugs (and thus unique and rare). When instead drugs are more tools to find out things you personally didn't know.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#147

Post by taneq »

stinkytaco wrote: post #72
fragola wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed on the bullshit. I think this might have something to do with me growing up in a certain hippy town on the California coast, but I couldn't get through this article without a lot of eye-rolling. OK, let's just put the whole drug thing aside and call it a hobby. You can have a hobby without having a pseudospiritual and vaguely appropriative justification for it. Bodybuilders have a term that they use to describ…

Offtopic, but unfortunately broscience has extended beyond pharmaceuticals to training practice. This kind of thinking dominates the crossfit world with terms like "muscle confusion" and "failure". It's sad because I got into crossfit ten years ago because it was fun, something different every day kept me coming back. I didn't want to be a Navy SEAL, just to keep active, but the almost religious adherence to the trai…

Have you tried interval training? I've had the best return on effort with that out of everything I've tried (jogging, traditional gym work, cycling). It's light on broscience and seems to be supported by all the 'real' scientific testing. It only takes 10-15 minutes per day and it's completely self-guided (I use a timer app on my phone to keep track of intervals.)

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#148

Post by scrame »

metaphorm wrote: post #92
k-mcgrady wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this the Hunter Thompson quote you're referring to? “We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the speed that fueled that 60's. That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously... All those pathetically eager acid freaks…

leave to Hunter S. Thompson of all people to throw a little __sobriety__ into the conversation. Somebody had to say it and he said it well.

Well, not "of all people".

Hunter S. Thompson has that reputation from younger people as "crazy guy who did lots of drugs". That was part of it, but his reputation came from his writing and journalism. He created a new, influential style of gonzo journalism[1] where he was openly opinionated and wrote with emotional attachment, and certainly some exaggeration.

That he's remembered as "crazy guy on drugs" instead of "great writer" or "trenchant journalist" shows very well the pop culture drift that happens with public figures.

Thompson was a standout writer with a brilliant critical eye towards society and found much of it disagreeable. That he found a way to relate that to his contemporary generation is shown by his body of work.

That he's remembered as a "drug guy", so a critique of Timothy Leary is surprising is ... too bad.

Check out "Hell's Angels" or "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72", if you've got the time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#149

Post by ap22213 »

throwanem wrote: post #138
ap22213 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty cryptic... Ok, what do you mean? I'm dense.

You assume there are reasons to be found in evolution. Are you sure they aren't simply put there after the fact?

Oh - I was using 'reason' as is often used in the informal vernacular - to mean why or follows from. I assumed that most people on here would understand from the context. But, I can see now that it's a loaded word given the subject - sorry to confuse.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#150

Post by collyw »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #143
civilian wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I got the message, and hung up the phone. My friend is also have difficulty leaving the path. A couple of months ago my buddy & I got some urgent texts from him-- he had taken a really large dose of LSD and ended up spending the next 12 hours in a emergency room's psych ward. I think that part of the reason that we have this B.S. propaganda around psychedelics (i.e. "They're the key to enlightenment!") is th…

> it can be pretty hard to encourage people to try drugs I think that in our society we have a problem with people taking too many drugs already. Deadly smoking of tobacco is decreasing but still too common (killed my mom). Booze and coffee are things people tolerate but use to adjust their mood. Pot seems to finally becoming accepted by law abiding society. But do we need to encourage more than this? As a parent of…

Psychedelics have far less harm on health than the legal drugs you listed.
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