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The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

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Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#141

Post by executesorder66 »

dang wrote: post #129
DHMO wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> delete all insulting posts This would be ok on HN. I'd rather that than people downvoting because they disagree or because you made an honest mistake. It wounds me every time I get a downvote, and often I just logout and create a new user, so that I don't feel marred by being associated with a past comment that someone didn't like. I had a serious amount of karma about 9 years ago and probably should've just gotten…

Sometimes one's comments have trollish effects even though one wasn't intentionally trolling. It took me years to notice this in my own case, and when I did see it, it fundamentally changed my approach. Effects matter more than intent.

Interesting. Can you provide an example?

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#142

Post by Noseshine »

epistasis wrote: post #28
jbmorgado wrote: post #9

Actually I see the present problem as exactly the opposite. More and more we live in a culture where people think it's their right to feel offended and for anyone saying anything that makes them fell that way to just be shut up by someone (some faculty department for instance). It is becoming basically a Politically Correct culture of censorship and we keep seeing opinion texts (just like this one) that appeal to tha…

>I don't see it as more and more people becoming jerks, I see it as more and more people becoming thin skinned. When everybody else seems thin-skinned, is it everybody else that has the problem?

That is a Dick-from-the-Internet (http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-06-07) kind of reply.

He did not say "everybody". You are making stuff up, see the linked Dilbert cartoon (you are famous).

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#143

Post by reacweb »

DHMO wrote: post #113
andrewbinstock wrote: post #3

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

> delete all insulting posts This would be ok on HN. I'd rather that than people downvoting because they disagree or because you made an honest mistake. It wounds me every time I get a downvote, and often I just logout and create a new user, so that I don't feel marred by being associated with a past comment that someone didn't like. I had a serious amount of karma about 9 years ago and probably should've just gotten…

I do not care to lose karma because of my strong opinion on a subject (like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12055486). I am more annoyed when I lose karma trying to give more matter of thought (for example https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11723170 or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11713948). This may be linked with my poor English level, but I do not really understand.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#144

Post by TeMPOraL »

epistasis wrote: post #28
jbmorgado wrote: post #9

Actually I see the present problem as exactly the opposite. More and more we live in a culture where people think it's their right to feel offended and for anyone saying anything that makes them fell that way to just be shut up by someone (some faculty department for instance). It is becoming basically a Politically Correct culture of censorship and we keep seeing opinion texts (just like this one) that appeal to tha…

>I don't see it as more and more people becoming jerks, I see it as more and more people becoming thin skinned. When everybody else seems thin-skinned, is it everybody else that has the problem?

Except it's not everybody else that seems thin-skinned, it's "more and more people becoming thin skinned". If people around you are catching flu while you stay healthy, isn't it a problem with them, not with you?

All progress is necessarily a change, but not every change is progress.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#145

Post by eyan »

Waterluvian wrote: post #137
dang wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad to hear that an experienced editor sees HN that way, and also that you see evidence of a repeatable approach. Those are good signs. As I'm sure you know, it's a more complex problem than just being willing or unwilling to put up with bad behavior. There are costs to addressing it—quite a few, it turns out, no matter what approach one takes. Our plan is to move HN toward more community self-regulation. Each s…

I can often be an asshole on Reddit. But I never am here because HN is so clean and well kept. The signal to noise ratio is fantastic and I'll be damned if I'm going to be the one to lessen it. Kind of amazing to me how it works that way: once there's graffiti on the wall, suddenly the perception is that it's okay to put graffiti on the wall.

Plays nicely into the Broken Window Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#146

Post by CamperBob2 »

mintplant wrote: post #106
crucini wrote: post #97

This sentence jumped out at me: >You also have those individuals who are “not rude” but keep telling people to “suck it up”, to get “their act together” or to believe that disrespect is just a question of interpretation. Sounds like the author has a lot of conflicts. Sounds like he often receives unwanted advice to cool his jets. Talking about "assholes" is somewhat pointless because conflict is a fact of life, and i…

> >You also have those individuals who are “not rude” but keep telling people to “suck it up”, to get “their act together” > fix yourself first. Become tactful, adroit and thick-skinned Aren't you just demonstrating exactly what the author was complaining about?

This is just a rephrasing of Postel's dictum. Be liberal in what you accept from others, but conservative in what you dish out.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#147

Post by forloop »

lmm wrote: post #138
dang wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad to hear that an experienced editor sees HN that way, and also that you see evidence of a repeatable approach. Those are good signs. As I'm sure you know, it's a more complex problem than just being willing or unwilling to put up with bad behavior. There are costs to addressing it—quite a few, it turns out, no matter what approach one takes. Our plan is to move HN toward more community self-regulation. Each s…

How are you measuring success? I feel that the quality of HN has declined a lot over the last year or two; we see a lot more one-liners and "couldn't resist" comments, and less technical content. (I think the caustic attitude of old HN helped; people who made jokes used to be shot down very quickly, whereas now people try to be nice about it). I now consciously avoid the site while America is awake.

> How are you measuring success?

Being a marketing platform, I would imagine something like the maximum number of people within their target audience engaging.

And two: not having facts/discussions which tarnish their company's image on the platform.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#149

Post by ghaff »

wutbrodo wrote: post #109
kiba wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true. HN is not about some specific subjects. We discussed everything from the Iraqi war to brexit to programming languages, etc.

While true, I think it has more to do with the way the relative niche-ness of HN shapes the community. The average person who comments on an Iraq war thread in HN is not selected from the same sample as the average person who comments on an Iraq war thread across all fora. HN consists of enough niche topics that the average person doesn't want to hang out here and make an account just to jump in on random Iraq war or…

Right. And if there is a thread on the Iraq War or Brexit, I'll pretty much guarantee that it's going to be heavily weighted with arguments and comments--mostly reflecting the talking points of a particular political perspective--that have been made a thousand times before. Plus a good smattering of "F so-and-so."

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#150

Post by pjc50 »

RhodaLs wrote: post #115
DHMO wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> delete all insulting posts This would be ok on HN. I'd rather that than people downvoting because they disagree or because you made an honest mistake. It wounds me every time I get a downvote, and often I just logout and create a new user, so that I don't feel marred by being associated with a past comment that someone didn't like. I had a serious amount of karma about 9 years ago and probably should've just gotten…

I agree with you. HN should get rid of the downvotes. They don't really serve a useful purpose. It just adds needless friction and anxiety, puts a certain amount of negativity at the center of the discussion, and reinforces a certain level of groupthink. If someone's factually wrong, a response pointing out the errors is far more effective than a downvote, and encourages further discussion. If something is offensive,…

> If someone's factually wrong, a response pointing out the errors is far more effective than a downvote, and encourages further discussion. If something is offensive, flag the comment and move on.

That depends on how wrong they are. There's plenty of fringe lunacy that's wrong but you could spend all your life uselessly rebutting. Everything from chemtrails to anarchocapitalism.

In this context, downvote is basically an eyeroll.

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