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Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

theatlantic.com

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Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#141

Post by naasking »

internaut wrote: post #116
conanbatt wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were to make a broad connection between the lack of trust in government, I would attribute it to the aging of the democratic institution. In the last 15 years, scandals around voting have been huge in many elections, and the advance of technology is making how the politicians run look antiquated and unrepresentative. I think this is more of a general response against governments who don't have the capacity to fu…

> Milton friedman would have said to let the banks fail, but the governments didn't, and that expectation is one of the causes cited for banks taking such large risks. This can't be repeated enough. The banks should have bit the dust. A great many pensioners and households would have suffered, but then the government could have introduced emergency bankruptcy laws and ameliorated the worst of it. The crash would have…

> A great many pensioners and households would have suffered, but then the government could have introduced emergency bankruptcy laws and ameliorated the worst of it.

Exactly, bail out the people, not the corrupt institutions.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#142

Post by peterclary »

digi_owl wrote: post #128

Sorry, i need to brain dump something. A: the free travel of workers within EU was basically there since the early coal and steel agreement. B: said workers still needed to present passports etc when crossing borders. C: the Schengen agreement removes the passport requirement (UK is not a signatory to it though). D: EU expands eastwards, leading to an influx of workers that can underbid locals. E: refugee crisis ends…

Regarding "D: EU expands eastwards", my understanding is that this was largely driven by the then British Conservative Government as a ploy to prevent further integration between EU countries. "Wider, not deeper" was the theory.

So the free movement of Eastern Europeans into the UK was due in large part to the Tories.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#143

Post by pjc50 »

tajen wrote: post #136
pjc50 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with putting all "immigration" into a single category is that it conflates so many different things. International visas are currently not harmonised. The UK is and has been free to run a regime that is as liberal or as hostile as it wants. Non-EU migration is not the fault of the EU. Intra-EU migration is tied (politically) to the single market. The EU is currently making this clear to Switzerland. The c…

Your last paragraph is a Godwin point. The first thing that would avoid a war between EU and UK would be tolerance for their point of view with a discussion about immigration without everyone throwing arms in the air and saying "they're all fascists" (which I have heard this week with a lot of anti-british hate). Yes, immigrants who have been accepted are all UK nationals and they belong there now. Now have we asked…

> Yes, immigrants who have been accepted are all UK nationals and they belong there now.

No, being an intra-EU migrant under EU free movement does not automatically make you a UK national. You retain your original nationality unless and until you go through the naturalisation process, which few have bothered with because it costs >£1500 and until now does not convey much benefit.

This is why people are worried about the Conservative party leadership candidates refusing to rule out expelling EU nationals - millions of people, some of whom have been here for years, are potentially affected.

> Now have we asked the country side UK people whether they want to distribute more visas in 2017 to non-EU highly skilled foreign workers, followed by a passport 10 years later?

No we haven't, but that's nothing to do with the EU? Generally the pressure has been to reduce "immigration", so the non-EU visa rules have been made more onerous, especially spousal visas.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#144

Post by barrkel »

aianus wrote: post #133
Throwaway23412 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This coincides with a podcast interview I listened to with a renowned CPA. He said that the existing tax code in the U.S. is set almost entirely to incentivize growth, entrepreneurship, and investment. So, the tax code is full of all kinds of breaks for employers, job creators, investors, owners of assets, etc. The tax rate on most long-term capital gains is significantly less than income tax. Salaried individuals be…

Rich people have lower savings rates than the middle class. You think billionaires just buy treasuries or CDs and wait for their wealth to evaporate through inflation? That money is invested, including into the VC funds that make the SV startup lifestyle possible.

Investments are savings; just riskier.

(Did you think that your savings account at the bank is just held as treasuries? The bank invests it.)

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#145

Post by BrainInAJar »

aianus wrote: post #133
Throwaway23412 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This coincides with a podcast interview I listened to with a renowned CPA. He said that the existing tax code in the U.S. is set almost entirely to incentivize growth, entrepreneurship, and investment. So, the tax code is full of all kinds of breaks for employers, job creators, investors, owners of assets, etc. The tax rate on most long-term capital gains is significantly less than income tax. Salaried individuals be…

Rich people have lower savings rates than the middle class. You think billionaires just buy treasuries or CDs and wait for their wealth to evaporate through inflation? That money is invested, including into the VC funds that make the SV startup lifestyle possible.

> make the SV startup lifestyle possible.

You say that as though it's a good thing

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#146

Post by MagnumOpus »

aianus wrote: post #133
Throwaway23412 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This coincides with a podcast interview I listened to with a renowned CPA. He said that the existing tax code in the U.S. is set almost entirely to incentivize growth, entrepreneurship, and investment. So, the tax code is full of all kinds of breaks for employers, job creators, investors, owners of assets, etc. The tax rate on most long-term capital gains is significantly less than income tax. Salaried individuals be…

Rich people have lower savings rates than the middle class. You think billionaires just buy treasuries or CDs and wait for their wealth to evaporate through inflation? That money is invested, including into the VC funds that make the SV startup lifestyle possible.

The parent is not talking about "savings" in the sense of savings accounts, but in terms of the macroeconomic sense of the word where savings denotes anything you do with money that is not immediate consumption (and therefore savings=investments).

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#147

Post by pluma »

dschiptsov wrote: post #68
pluma wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think governments are still more trustworthy than businesses, though. At least with governments you get to pretend that you elect people into office who have your interests at heart.

It seems that a government service originally was within that "natural" framework of division of labor (which exists even for non-human species). Defense and law enforcement and other necessary specializations are obvious examples. Cells has specializations which makes higher life forms possible. But as long as government employees start to form its own cast or a social class with higher social status than mere soldi…

Oh, I'm not arguing governments are inherently and permanently trustworthy. I certainly wouldn't trust any government in existence right now.

However in principle a government is tasked with overseeing the protection and prosperity of a group of people (its subjects) whereas a company is tasked with protecting the interests of its owners (e.g. investors).

A company merely operates on its customers (or its users in the case of companies like Facebook where the users are the product, not customers). A government operates for its subjects.

At least that's the general idea if you follow Thomas Hobbes, John Locke or Rousseau. I'm certain there are quite a number of governments around which disagree with this definition.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#148

Post by RGamma »

kuschku wrote: post #117
venomsnake wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of EU immigration (intra -EU too, but it is a bit subdued) is of great concern to great many people. Since the AfD is the only German party willing to listen about said concerns - you can safely assume they will become more popular.

That's not even true. Not a single German party has been pro out-EU immigration. Not a single one. In fact, the current government even made it harder for asylum seekers to stay, or bring their family, and expects to deport the majority of them in less than 3 years. Please read the official parliamentary protocols, and not the very wrong spin the media put on it.

Last time we took in a large portion of out-EU immigrants we didn't send ~2 million of them back (even though there were plans to do so), many of which I wouldn't remotely consider "German" even in the third generation (yes, I'm talking Turkish guest workers here). I don't see why this would be different this time around, especially considering many have nothing to go back to. From this we also have gotten a clear indication that large-scale assimilation isn't working (in this timespan) -- as you'd expect, because who wants to let go of his culture for no reason (there are native people living here!?).

Technically there's a distinction between an accepted asylum seeker and a citizen proper, but at the end of the day they're going to get a regular permission to settle (Niederlassungserlaubnis, like a normal immigrant) and from there it's not far to citizenship at which point there's no legal way to send them back (because it would involve revoking citizenship). But even permissions to settle aren't routinely revoked, so the ruling parties accept that the asylum program is effectively turned into an immigration one. Merkel, too, has accepted that and is pushing the "integration" angle. A smart move considering the refugees of today can be the voters of tomorrow (~10-20 years). Her party backed off a bit when right-wing movements gained steam, but nothing essential has changed since. The next federal parliament elections will be interesting ones, a big motion of confidence...

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#149

Post by aianus »

BrainInAJar wrote: post #145
aianus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people have lower savings rates than the middle class. You think billionaires just buy treasuries or CDs and wait for their wealth to evaporate through inflation? That money is invested, including into the VC funds that make the SV startup lifestyle possible.

> make the SV startup lifestyle possible. You say that as though it's a good thing

Well they quite literally 'created' my job and many others' so I'm pretty happy with it.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#150

Post by soVeryTired »

barrkel wrote: post #144
aianus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich people have lower savings rates than the middle class. You think billionaires just buy treasuries or CDs and wait for their wealth to evaporate through inflation? That money is invested, including into the VC funds that make the SV startup lifestyle possible.

Investments are savings; just riskier. (Did you think that your savings account at the bank is just held as treasuries? The bank invests it.)

>Did you think that your savings account at the bank is just held as treasuries? The bank invests it.

It's actually a bit more complicated than that:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarte...

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