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American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

theatlantic.com

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Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#141

Post by Broken_Hippo »

Aloha wrote: post #111

I learned when I was a child it was dangerous to be the smartest person in the room. It's much safer to appear to be the village idiot, or at least less bright that the brightest. I do disagree fundamentally with the concept of the evils of merit - merit is so much more than smarts and formal education, its a mix of capacity for the role, agreeability and eagerness, productivity, effort expended, grooming and appeara…

I think many find the same thing. Don't prove the teacher wrong. Too smart in a few subjects or suddenly figuring stuff out? Accusations of cheating. "You are too smart for your own good" the adults say. "Yeah, they are smart, but smart people don't have common sense and it shows" (which is really more noticing that the kid acts just like other children due to maturity levels or that they are thinking outside of the box).

And it carries over into adulthood. One of the unfortunate things to learn is that sometimes, one just has to not say anything. Don't be smarter than the boss, nor too independent (yet not too clingy or stupid). Always a balance. Fitting into the mold actually goes further than actual intelligence.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#142

Post by lgieron »

bitL wrote: post #68
octobyte wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linking Breitbart and the Dailymail is... well, exactly the sort of thing I expected you would do.

Not sure if that is relevant. Source should not be important if the facts match reality. Some social scientists observed that women tend to choose lower-risk decisions compared to men that are pressured to take higher risks with immense payouts (rare) or complete disasters (frequent). So these two strategies yield different results - women have a smaller variance, i.e. there are less women at the top and less at the…

From what I've seen, women tend to pick "fun" (literature, art etc.) careers more often than men. My understanding is that they're aware of availability of the backup strategy of marrying some guy who makes more money than them (and thus avoiding near-poverty life associated with those degrees), which makes them less risk-averse.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#143

Post by DanBC »

bitL wrote: post #68
octobyte wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linking Breitbart and the Dailymail is... well, exactly the sort of thing I expected you would do.

Not sure if that is relevant. Source should not be important if the facts match reality. Some social scientists observed that women tend to choose lower-risk decisions compared to men that are pressured to take higher risks with immense payouts (rare) or complete disasters (frequent). So these two strategies yield different results - women have a smaller variance, i.e. there are less women at the top and less at the…

> Not sure if that is relevant. Source should not be important if the facts match reality.

People in the US are familiar with "fact checkers", and may not be familiar with just how blatantly UK newspapers will lie.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/yesterday-the-daily...

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#144

Post by ashitlerferad »

sandworm101 wrote: post #118

>> The 2010s, in contrast, are a terrible time to not be brainy. That sums it up. Intelligence doesn't matter, rather the appearance of intelligence gets one ahead. Appearing "brainy" counts more than actually being brainy. TheBigBangTheory is part of that trend. Intelligent people are expected to project a particular image. IRL that never happens. Many very smart people couldn't care less for trek, comics or any of…

> Let us separate the smart from the fashionable.

Borders between people don't help anyone.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#145

Post by matthewmacleod »

curioussavage wrote: post #124
PeterStuer wrote: post #99

As a non-American, and so 'judging' America only through the media, it does feel like the complete opposite. Deep ingrained anti-intellectualism, idolization of stupidity and love of the brazen and the rich. Scary decline of the sciences and rapid expansion of superstitions. Of course this does not apply to this here readership, but at least from an outside perspective we see 'idiocracy' surging onto the stage at bre…

Canadians and Europeans love to look down on Americans, we already know this. Thats all your comment adds is an example of that. People and movements (including the Trump supporter movement which you are alluding to) are very complex. And frankly you just don't understand.

And frankly you just don't understand.

Well, it would be helpful if you could explain rather than just complain.

The Trump phenomenon is baffling to many of us outside of the US. I can obviously grasp some of the key reasons – anti-establishment feeling, for example – but equally I'm confused by other aspects.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#146

Post by danieltillett »

sangnoir wrote: post #131
danieltillett wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Flynn effect had stopped in most western countries including the USA.

Your statement would only work as a rebuttal of parent's argument if everyone in the west had equally good nutrition (from birth), stimulation, emencouragement asand education as these factors are suspected to be behind the Flynn effect.

I was just countering the parents argument that we are heading in the right direction - sure there is still some individuals that will benefit from whatever drives the Flynn effect but overall it is now insignificant.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#147

Post by vacri »

smt88 wrote: post #105
PeterStuer wrote: post #99

As a non-American, and so 'judging' America only through the media, it does feel like the complete opposite. Deep ingrained anti-intellectualism, idolization of stupidity and love of the brazen and the rich. Scary decline of the sciences and rapid expansion of superstitions. Of course this does not apply to this here readership, but at least from an outside perspective we see 'idiocracy' surging onto the stage at bre…

Your assessments are not consistent with facts. You imply that the media is a distorting lens, but then you go on to espouse views that come entirely from the media. I'm not sure I understand that. The US is becoming less religious, and it is the least religious it has ever been. People aren't increasingly idolizing stupidity or loving the rich, or Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders wouldn't have done as well as they di…

> People aren't increasingly idolizing stupidity or loving the rich, or Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders wouldn't have done as well as they did (both used anti-elite messaging).

O_o

Trump's constant refrain is "I'm so good at business. I have so much money". And Occupy Wall Street and the anti-1%'ers have changed what fundamental aspects of US society, exactly? Sanders is something less mainstream, but he was always trailing the 'business-as-usual' candidate.

Also, speaking from an outsider's perspective, it seems to me that the US was less religious just before the 9/11 attacks than it is now.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#148

Post by kartan »

The premise is erroneous and it creates a difficult debate.

> American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

I think that we are just in the same place that we have always been.

There were this intelligence tests in the 1900s that is what, still nowadays, commonly people mistakes as innate intelligence. "Yerkes intelligence exams (alpha, beta and individual) were culturally biased, taken under markedly different conditions and tended to reflect years in the U.S. and familiarity with dominant culture, rather than innate intelligence" http://www.understandingrace.org/history/science/race_intel....

Even innate intelligence is more complex than a number as there are different components to account for.

So when the article reads "American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth" it should read "Americans increasingly immature when judging others".

I blame this phenomenon at the lack of education quality. Memorizing and doing mental calculus is far from what a good education should give you. Critical thinking, capacity to self-learning, appreciation of universal human values should be the main part of that education.

And as it says America I don't think that it is restricted to any country. Education could be a lot better everywhere. But shrinking education budgets all around the world, because "crisis", are jeopardizing our future.

Re: American society increasingly mistakes intelligence for human worth

#149

Post by vacri »

onion2k wrote: post #96
gwern wrote: post #64

I disagree. American society has always had something of a love-hate relationship with intelligence, and there have always been examples like _Big Bang Theory_ venerating intelligence ('Sputnik moment' and astronauts, anyone?). Intelligence correlates with success cross-culturally and over time, so that's not in question. What is in question is the 'increasingly'; the only evidence offered, aside from anecdote, is th…

The Big Bang Theory is a show where most of the laughs are derived from the characters being incompetent in some way or another. The basis of the show is "people failing at things outside of their specialist domain." That isn't venerating intelligence.

It's also just a standard sitcom, one that just happens to have the trappings of higher education in its scenery. Same jokes, same cadences, same formula as so many others. Curiously, I find Raising Hope, a sitcom about a dumb-as-rocks family, to be far more intelligently written.
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