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All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

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Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#141
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the relation of the GCD function to the problem is hardly obscure. But I agree, unless the role was specifically math-related it's a horrible filter question. Many hard-nosed and otherwise eminently productive and useful systems engineering types I know would surely blank on it, simply because... that wasn't the kind of stuff they geeked out on, in their high school / college years.

I have an undergrad degree in math, a master's in applied math (focusing on MCMC statistical stuff), and a master's degree in electrical engineering (focusing on computer vision), and I did not know this, and it would have taken me more time than was allotted in the interview to derive it for myself. I feel that when I was asked and I said, "I don't know" it was the unequivocally right thing for me to say to capture…

Hmm - so what was the problem statement, exactly? (I may have been thinking of something related, but different).

Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#142
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting all your news and concepts about how to work from one perspective - your reply confirms to me that your assumptions are killing you. Many many companies allow remote work. I have an open office which I dislike, but I can also work at home 2-3 days a week. It's true, people don't trust companies like they did in the 50s, for good reason. Many many people though have families and work is not the highest…

I appreciate your reply, but I also feel you are too nonchalantly dismissing something like e.g. Moral Mazes, which is a significant longitudinal study of bureaucracy and management hierarchy, using tools from academic sociology. It's not just some fly-by-night opinion. In my experience, it is extremely hard to find jobs that provide a combination of paying well, allowing you a personal life, and having reasonable en…

Again, I'm just saying you're comparing the perfect vs the better than almost anyone else (by your own admission). Paying well to you might mean 400k a year, I don't know. I think its eminently possible to get 100k-150k/yr as a senior developer and not work over 40 hours a week. Maybe not where you live though, but remote I'd imagine you could easily find something for 80k at 40hrs a week or less.

I do understand the drudgery of work, and how it can hold back cognitive development and just plain be unhealthy at times. I don't understand how you can compare against your mother and brother's experiences and still come out saying you won't take a job. I'm admittedly in a fine place right now, but I remember very clearly when I wasn't.

Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#143
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your reply, but I also feel you are too nonchalantly dismissing something like e.g. Moral Mazes, which is a significant longitudinal study of bureaucracy and management hierarchy, using tools from academic sociology. It's not just some fly-by-night opinion. In my experience, it is extremely hard to find jobs that provide a combination of paying well, allowing you a personal life, and having reasonable en…

Again, I'm just saying you're comparing the perfect vs the better than almost anyone else (by your own admission). Paying well to you might mean 400k a year, I don't know. I think its eminently possible to get 100k-150k/yr as a senior developer and not work over 40 hours a week. Maybe not where you live though, but remote I'd imagine you could easily find something for 80k at 40hrs a week or less. I do understand the…

I'm not talking about mere drudgery. Look, I've got a decent amount of work experience. I know the 40-hour grind. I know how to navigate tricky relationships with colleagues. I know how to deal with and succeed in average-case corporate politics. None of that is what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about abject treatment. Being demeaned, discriminated against, yelled at, spoken to in exceedingly unprofessional ways and having no recourse to defend yourself, and being 'punished' for things that the executives may dislike, but for which it is literally illegal to punish employees (like violations of the NLRA).

That's the big stuff. Smaller stuff would be the ubiquity of unhealthy working conditions, bait-and-switch jobs that require incomprehensibly higher quality work experience than what they plan to give out, severe politics, and overwork (which, seriously, I don't know where you are finding these magical 150k jobs for 40 hrs a week. The experience of literally every single software professional I know is completely at odds with that, and my own experience is as well).

That you glibly throw in things like "but remote I'd imagine you could easily find something for 80k at 40hrs a week or less" is frustrating. For example, in my current rural living situation, I do not even have access to stable high-speed internet. I use 4G tethering through my phone just to browse the internet most of the time, and even that is slow and spotty. There is no way I could work remotely here, and even at that $80k would not be enough for basic cost of living plus support for the on-going family obligations (and would be a drastic pay cut for me anyway). To boot, there really isn't a large supply of remote jobs. I frequently check for them at Stack Overflow Careers, We Work Remotely, and other sites, and there's just nothing. Like most other sources, I have to filter our tons and tons of irrelevant web framework jobs, and for what's left, nothing is remote. Even finding jobs that offer adequate (or any) relocation assistance is incredibly hard. Basically, if you don't already live in a glamorous urban area, you get shit on. That's not just some angsty comment. That's just simply what has happened when I search for a job.

Many of the things you say sound reasonable on a surface layer, but there isn't the substance behind them. The reality of the situation is just not within the bubble you've been able to experience. That's not your fault -- indeed it is near impossible to adequately get someone to understand my situation. Many of my friends are used to spending tons on eating out at expensive urban restaurants, buying expensive subscription services for fashion and entertainment, living with ubiquitous public transit and easily available access to high-speed internet, etc. They can't understand life in poor America when you flip all those things and live hundreds of miles from any region which could even remotely offer a relevant or minimally-well-paying job to support your immediate needs.

Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#144
The article is a bit absurd.

If someone can do all of what they propose, he could as well package his day into some kind of product or service, and then sell that instead.

One reason why people want to be employees and not enterpreneur-cum-salesman is exactly because they do not want to do all of that, or are simply not capable of doing all of that.

Ever since I learned to repackage my hourly efforts into sell-able products and services, I stopped looking for jobs and just sold products and services instead. In the end, an employer is just someone who repackages your hours into sell-able products and services.

Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#145
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm just saying you're comparing the perfect vs the better than almost anyone else (by your own admission). Paying well to you might mean 400k a year, I don't know. I think its eminently possible to get 100k-150k/yr as a senior developer and not work over 40 hours a week. Maybe not where you live though, but remote I'd imagine you could easily find something for 80k at 40hrs a week or less. I do understand the…

I'm not talking about mere drudgery. Look, I've got a decent amount of work experience. I know the 40-hour grind. I know how to navigate tricky relationships with colleagues. I know how to deal with and succeed in average-case corporate politics. None of that is what I'm talking about. I'm talking about abject treatment. Being demeaned, discriminated against, yelled at, spoken to in exceedingly unprofessional ways an…

If you live in an area like that and don't even have a reliable Internet connection, then no wonder you don't have a job. Blame yourself for where you have chosen to live rather than the evils of corporate greed.

Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#146
post #101
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After pouring through your comments throughout this thread I'm kinda left with the following conclusion (take it for what its worth, a random person on the internet): you have a mindset problem, and you're generalizing to the point that you wouldn't be able to accept nearly any job, or be happy in one. You've determined: Most companies are bad/wrong/awful/burnout machines All recruiters are either spambots or leeches…

I understand where you're coming from, but I also feel there's a serious argument to be made, Moral Mazes / Peopleware style, that most companies are bad/wrong/awful/burnout machines. The fact that open-plan offices are widely used is a perfect example. It's a condition fundamentally at odds with the productivity it is alleged to facilitate. Cost has long been disproven as a favorable factor for choosing open-plan, a…

> Cost has long been disproven as a favorable factor for choosing open-plan, as the productivity losses quickly destroy any real estate savings.

That's very interesting. What's your best reference for that, so I can independently verify it?

Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#147
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about mere drudgery. Look, I've got a decent amount of work experience. I know the 40-hour grind. I know how to navigate tricky relationships with colleagues. I know how to deal with and succeed in average-case corporate politics. None of that is what I'm talking about. I'm talking about abject treatment. Being demeaned, discriminated against, yelled at, spoken to in exceedingly unprofessional ways an…

If you live in an area like that and don't even have a reliable Internet connection, then no wonder you don't have a job. Blame yourself for where you have chosen to live rather than the evils of corporate greed.

Have you even read any of the rest of the thread? You sound ridiculous.

I had no choice but to move here due to a significant set of family medical and legal circumstances that I am supporting (both financially and by doing full-time care, childcare, and other tasks every day). This is where my immediate family is from (one of them still owns and operates part of some farmland, not here but in North Dakota) -- I didn't choose this, but it's my family's history. I don't prefer living here, but I prefer to make sure my family is OK rather than abandon them for urban entitlement.

The fact that you think people should "blame themselves" for choosing to live here is outrageous to me. At the least the people around here are good-hearted and care about other humans. I'd rather live around here than around people like you, absolutely.

Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#148
post #146
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from, but I also feel there's a serious argument to be made, Moral Mazes / Peopleware style, that most companies are bad/wrong/awful/burnout machines. The fact that open-plan offices are widely used is a perfect example. It's a condition fundamentally at odds with the productivity it is alleged to facilitate. Cost has long been disproven as a favorable factor for choosing open-plan, a…

> Cost has long been disproven as a favorable factor for choosing open-plan, as the productivity losses quickly destroy any real estate savings. That's very interesting. What's your best reference for that, so I can independently verify it?

It was analyzed considerably in the book Peopleware: Productive Projects and Teams which even has a chapter entitled "Bring Back the Door." Joel Spolsky, co-founder of Stack Exchange and Fog Creek, is also deeply committed to providing private offices even for workers in Manhattan, and had some SO tech bloggers recently wrote up a little about the cost per square foot and some other financial considerations when searching for new urban office space.

I don't actually consider this to be interesting or controversial. It's been talked about and thought about significantly since at least the 80s when Peopleware was written, and even much further back. Christopher Alexander also talks about the detrimental effects of poor office design in The Timeless Way of Building.

You can Google for dozens of studies about communicable diseases in open plan offices, decreased morale, cognitive health problems related to lack of privacy, fatigue caused by listening to music for too many hours, effects of curtailing workplace conversations and speaking superficially to avoid overstimulation from constant contact and interaction, etc. etc.

I'll put some links at the bottom (you can easily find summaries of Peopleware and it's easy to find the Stack Overflow real estate blog posts). But before I do, I just want to point out that the whole issue is well modeled by what Michael O. Church called "artificial scarcity" -- that executives and corporate management are fully aware of what they are doing and that spending money of gaudy and over-the-top open-plan offices with climbing walls, gourmet cafes, and hideous open-plan sweatshops workspaces, they are perpetuating a hedonic treadmill atmosphere. Getting that coveted private space becomes the carrot they can dangle, basically starting you out by making you work in poor conditions and making you feel like you must sublimate away your human needs to signal loyalty, and if you do that long enough, you might be rewarded with a physical environment that supports basic human needs like privacy and quiet. Many firms just do cargo cult copying of trendy start-ups, and so they do this by accident. But you really do have to put your radar out and be extremely careful not to work for the firms that do it intentionally -- places where, as described in Moral Mazes, there is real, intentional effort placed on social engineering employees and pitting their intrinsic human needs against what the employer demands of them.

I once worked for a company that had offices across the U.S. Their Columbus, Ohio, office mostly housed executives, regional sales, and a large portion of the company's senior HR staff. When a new CTO took over, he was able to rally others in the company to a mandate that "engineers like open-plan spaces" and that they needed to radically alter their current office spaces, moving into artsy neighborhoods of metro areas, loft spaces, creating a cross-country theme of exposed brick and ductwork with fancy kitchens, glass walls, etc. Totally cliche. Douglas Coupland couldn't have scripted it better.

When I did my exit interview with that company, I talked with an HR rep from Columbus about how the distraction and noise of the open-plan layout in Boston was just killing me. As an introvert, it made me feel exhausted and like eyes were constantly on me no matter what (even if people overtly insisted they weren't). And it was just impossible to work. She told me that the exact same thing happened to the Columbus office, and that there was not even an engineering presence there. Most people there had 10+ years of tenure with the company and had always worked with private offices, and in fact really needed them because all of them handled private HR calls and employee personal matters all day every day, things that can't be done in an open-plan area. Now they were constantly crowding each other out of booking the few private conference rooms and making everything exceptionally hard.

Amazingly, the company spent over $12 million on just that Columbus office re-design!! They actually spent money to tear down productivity-enhancing privacy features and replace them with superficially trendy open-plan designs that were overwhelmingly obviously counter-productive, all under a mandate about engineering which did not even take place in that office location!

When people try to tell me it's about saving money, I just laugh. Maybe for some bootstrapped start-up accepting zero outside funding. But for any company with VC backing or any established, revenue-generated business, it's a million percent bullshit.

A few links

[0] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272494413... >

[1] http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00140139.2013.87... >

Quoting from the first paper:

> "Our results categorically contradict the industry-accepted wisdom that open-plan layout enhances communication between colleagues and improves occupants' overall work environmental satisfaction considering previous researchers' finding that satisfaction with workspace environment is closely related to perceived productivity, job satisfaction and organisational outcomes, the open-plan proponents' argument that open-plan improves morale and productivity appears to have no basis in the research literature."

You do have to be extremely careful about confirmation bias, of course. You can Google a zillion opinion pieces arguing voiciferously for or against open-plan offices. But the real productivity research does not lend any support to them.

Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#149
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really feel for your personal situation, and I appreciate your candor here. Unfortunately, I come from the school of thought often derided hereabouts that this is an excellent interview question, and your unwillingness to engage with the question would've gotten you a bad score for that interview. Generally speaking I think it's great to start with: A) I don't know a great solution to that! Would you like me to bru…

I did A) and gave the for-loop algorithm that examines each integer in the range on one axis, computes the value of the line at that point, and checks if it's also an integer. The interviewer said this works, asked me the time complexity (trivially O(N), where N is the number of integers in the range on that axis), and seemed happy. Then he asked if I knew a way to do it using the GCD. I said I did not know off the t…

Thanks for your response.

Given your clarification (alternately, perhaps I misunderstood your original post) I retract my criticism. If you drew a picture and engaged, and he actively wanted a closed form and didn't want to see you work it out slowly, then that's a poor interviewer, not on you at all!

I will note that I do occasionally ask "do you happen to know if there's a closed form" for things, as an extra credit kind of thing, making clear I'm curious and I don't expect a yes. Someone could easily get the impression this is a high stakes question if I wasn't clear it's not; conceivably that was the intent in this situation.

But any which way, sounds frustrating and the interviewer was either a jerk or unclear.

Re: All the best advice we could find on how to get a job

#150
post #148
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cost has long been disproven as a favorable factor for choosing open-plan, as the productivity losses quickly destroy any real estate savings. That's very interesting. What's your best reference for that, so I can independently verify it?

It was analyzed considerably in the book Peopleware: Productive Projects and Teams which even has a chapter entitled "Bring Back the Door." Joel Spolsky, co-founder of Stack Exchange and Fog Creek, is also deeply committed to providing private offices even for workers in Manhattan, and had some SO tech bloggers recently wrote up a little about the cost per square foot and some other financial considerations when sear…

Thanks for the very comprehensive answer!

Peopleware is already on my mailing list and I've just added Moral Mazes too.

Would you say, then, that corporations who switch to open plan offices are just acting irrationally? They think they're going to get a benefit out of it but actually it's a net negative?

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