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Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

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Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#141

Post by blasdel »

tensor wrote: post #100
blasdel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's far more calculated than that: Google's shipping Android builds avoid a lot of basic UI features that Apple did first. HTC then adds most of them through their "TouchSense" modifications, just like they did with WM6 before. They're trying to keep Google in its place, and prevent HTC from extending it. They're happy with Android being out there for the dorkwads and ideologues (it lets them shed their 'wor…

I enjoy reading hacker news comments because they tend to be mature and express interesting ideas well. I hope your future comments do not resort to childish name calling as you do in this one. As for your point, that you feel patents like the multi-touch patent are justified, I would point out that many people disagree with trivial patents such as this, or even software patents in general. It is developers and IT pe…

C'mon now, as a dorkwad and an ideologue myself, I feel free to refer to my brethren here by those 'childish' names.

I don't feel that the patents are justified -- I'm merely explaining how and why I think Apple is using them.

Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#142

Post by nitrogen »

stcredzero wrote: post #87
technomancy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't the last two patents basically give them the right to sue ANYONE who has ever made some sort of GUI application, including vendors in their own app store and people who write apps for OSX? Aren't these basically design patterns? Welcome to the world of software patents. Many of the other ones are probably also very basic and widespread, they're just not worded in such a way as to make it so obvious.

Everyone needs to do a search through the patent database sometime. You don't really know how much of a cesspool that system has become until you see the prevalence of patent trolling. The Signal/Bullsh#t ratio of our patent system is perhaps a little better than the Legit/Spam ratio for emails. Yes, it really is bad on a par with that!

The reason more programmers don't do that is because it is incredibly risky in terms of legal liability. The simple fact that you even looked at the patent database increases the chance that you will have to pay three times as much in damages if you are sued. Groklaw.net's sidebar has links to a bunch of information on all of this, designed to bridge the gap between lawyers and geeks.

Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#143

Post by nitrogen »

raptrex wrote: post #29
jsmcgd wrote: post #7

Which particular patents are in question?

Digital Daily has the documents http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20100302/apples-suits-aga... Gizmodo has a summary of the patents: The ‘331 Patent, entitled "Time-Based, Non-Constant Translation Of User Interface Objects Between States," was duly and legally issued on April 22, 2008 by the United States Patent and Trademark Office. The ‘949 Patent, entitled "Touch Screen Device, Method, And Graphical User Interfac…

I bet if someone got a bunch of experienced geeks together they could find prior art for most of those. Someone so motivated could start by getting in touch with pubpat.org.

Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#144

Post by smcq »

wvenable wrote: post #85
raganwald wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a rhetorical question! But responding to your explanation, if competitors are free to "adopt" Apple's innovations, why can't competitor's "adopt" OS X and iPhone by copying them feature for feature, polish for polish, detail for detail, simply changing logos and writing "Hello from Dreary Seattle" on the back? It is not obvious to me how "polish and attention to detail" are going to be a competitive advantage…

> Why can't competitor's "adopt" OS X and iPhone by copying them feature for feature, polish for polish, detail for detail They can't copy the code for OS X because it's covered by copyright. They also can't make it look exactly the same because of trademark. What does that leave? A competitor could then still completely implement their own operating system, User Interface, related hardware, and put the effort into p…

Were you alive in the 90s? I'm just wondering out loud.

Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#145

Post by stcredzero »

ajross wrote: post #136
stcredzero wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're implying that Apple's particular implementation of multi-touch is some sort of essential for life. It's not. At least not yet.

The injunctive relief sought goes rather farther than "stop using our particular implementation of multi-touch". I think you need to go back and read the complaint (there's a great writeup right now at http://lwn.net ). Yours seems to be a knee-jerk defense of your favorite company, but this is not a trivial or common license action.

Yours seems to be a knee-jerk defense of your favorite company

Pure prejudice on your part? Are you basing this on my other writings? Or is this just a stab in the dark? (I will re-read the claim, however.)

Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#146

Post by stcredzero »

ajross wrote: post #127
starkfist wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate: Apple does own these patents. Why is it evil for them to enforce them? If Android was a Microsoft project, would people still think this legal action was evil? If the iPhone OS was "open source" and there were other means of selling apps other than the app store, would people still think this legal action was evil? If Google (the "underdog" (?)) owned these patents through the purchase of An…

All patent suits are evil. If all software patents were enforced, no new software could be written without licensing thousands or tens of thousands of patents from hundreds of holders. And no free software could be written at all. So the answers to all your your questions is "yes". Except the last, which is kinda dumb. "BLOOPT" would no doubt be a trademark violation, you can't patent a name. But yeah, if Loopt filed…

All patent suits are evil.

From what you are saying, it only follows that most patent suits are legal. I am sure one would eventually find the odd legit patent suit after a rigorous enough search. (Analogous to real avail among spam.)

Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#147

Post by stcredzero »

nitrogen wrote: post #142
stcredzero wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone needs to do a search through the patent database sometime. You don't really know how much of a cesspool that system has become until you see the prevalence of patent trolling. The Signal/Bullsh#t ratio of our patent system is perhaps a little better than the Legit/Spam ratio for emails. Yes, it really is bad on a par with that!

The reason more programmers don't do that is because it is incredibly risky in terms of legal liability. The simple fact that you even looked at the patent database increases the chance that you will have to pay three times as much in damages if you are sued. Groklaw.net's sidebar has links to a bunch of information on all of this, designed to bridge the gap between lawyers and geeks.

For this purpose, one can do a search in an area away from where they are working.

Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#148

Post by cheald »

codebaobab wrote: post #115
pg wrote: post #31

If this had happened a day earlier I don't think I would have posted that RFS. Apple is inching ever closer to evil, and I worry that there's no one within the company who can stand up to Jobs and tell him so.

I must confess that I was very surprised to hear that Apple initiated a lawsuit against HTC and I am wondering if there is some backstory that we don't know. I am not going to try and argue that Apple is some kind of altruistic, saintly company. But Apple's recent history lead me to believe that they viewed patents as defensive, not offensive weapons. Yes, they sued Nokia, but only after Nokia sued them first. So que…

The short answer is that Android-based phones like the Nexus One and Desire are a far bigger threat to Apple's stranglehold on the NA smartphone market than anything else to date. This isn't about "protecting their inventions", it's about throwing up roadblocks to their biggest potential competitor.

Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#149

Post by DaVinMan »

pg wrote: post #31

If this had happened a day earlier I don't think I would have posted that RFS. Apple is inching ever closer to evil, and I worry that there's no one within the company who can stand up to Jobs and tell him so.

They're a for-profit company. They'll act completely out of self-interest under all circumstances. Do you really trust any for-profit company? Think about it.

Re: Apple Sues HTC for Patent Infringement

#150

Post by jwhitlark »

pg wrote: post #31

If this had happened a day earlier I don't think I would have posted that RFS. Apple is inching ever closer to evil, and I worry that there's no one within the company who can stand up to Jobs and tell him so.

It is safer to be feared than loved, if one must choose, but above all else, one must avoid being hated. (Paraphrasing Machiavelli)

It's interesting to me that a few year ago I'd have been scared to compete (in any way) with apple for fear of being beaten by a better product. Today the picture is much muddier, but the feeling of revulsion is new...

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