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WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

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Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#141

Post by marcosdumay »

Others wrote: post #89
soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

But, as it says in the article, WhatsApp just doesn't have the data the judge wants it to turn over. How does it make sense to punish a company for not doing something that it physically cannot do?

The Law orders it to collect the data, the data is available and Watsapp does collect it, but instantly discards (or so they claim).

What is in there that can not be punished?

I don't think this specific law is a good one, but it is not in clear violation of our Constitution, and was brought up by People's representatives... We should fight for improving it, and we should stop relying on infrastructure owned by private companies. But I can't think this judge is wrong.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#142

Post by ovis »

soneca wrote: post #106
Others wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, as it says in the article, WhatsApp just doesn't have the data the judge wants it to turn over. How does it make sense to punish a company for not doing something that it physically cannot do?

I think this statement weird. End-to-end encryption is very recent, the data asked by the judge is for communication made before this feature roll-out. So I'm assuming Whatsapp do have the information for these two particular cases. But I could be wrong. Anyway, maybe they are just using it for PR support on their position against the court decision, betting that all of that Telegram new users will come back to Whats…

Do we know for sure what cases this particular order is connected to? Because WhatsApp has been encrypting Android communications since 2014 [0].

[0] https://www.wired.com/2014/11/whatsapp-encrypted-messaging/

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#143

Post by soneca »

btreesOfSpring wrote: post #123
soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

This ruling makes end-to-end encryption illegal where, a service provider at no time holds the keys to decrypt messages between communicating parties. This is a protocol decision and since the Snowden revelations, a point of concern for civil libertarians. The Apple v FBI debate is a child of these exact concerns. The idea that governments want to legislate unfettered access to private communications and devices shou…

I agree with you. And I think all this should be framed "is the law right? should we change it?"; instead is always presented as "an authoritarian, out of his league, small town judge who is arrogant and clueless about tech".

He is just following the law, so fight the law, no diminish the judge.

Remembering that a "single judge" following the law with authonomy launched the biggest attack on corruption of brazilian history, and the fact that he is not a supreme court justice acted in favor of an independent investigation (search "sergio moro" and "lava-jato" police investiagiont).

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#144

Post by guelo »

soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

Besides the point that Whatsapp does not have the data, how does it make sense to stop 100 million people from communicating to prosecute one drug dealer? If you look at it from the point of view of society as a whole the judge has done a lot more damage than the alleged drug dealer. The judge has other options, such as issuing fines, that won't disrupt the lives of millions of people.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#145

Post by andersonmvd »

btreesOfSpring wrote: post #123
soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

This ruling makes end-to-end encryption illegal where, a service provider at no time holds the keys to decrypt messages between communicating parties. This is a protocol decision and since the Snowden revelations, a point of concern for civil libertarians. The Apple v FBI debate is a child of these exact concerns. The idea that governments want to legislate unfettered access to private communications and devices shou…

It also happened before end-to-end encryption be available: http://g1.globo.com/tecnologia/noticia/2015/12/operadoras-sa... (portuguese-br), so it's not necessarily about end-to-end encryption.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#146

Post by sangnoir »

newman314 wrote: post #118
soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

Therein lies the rub. What's "legal" does not always mean it's right. To hide behind "it's legal" to me is harmful to humanity as ofttimes the law is behind the curve, we can and should be better.

> Therein lies the rub. What's "legal" does not always mean it's right.

> To hide behind "it's legal" to me is harmful to humanity as ofttimes the law is behind the curve, we can and should be better.

I'm with you - but acting on your convictions and doing what's right should also mean accepting the consequences of the current laws. I for one am freaked out by a future where Multinationals get to pick and choose which laws they would like to follow because "the law is behind the curve". Uber's actions and general attitude suggest this future is actually now.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#147

Post by soapdog »

criley2 wrote: post #83
soapdog wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Samstave, Just a bit of nitpick to save you some trouble in the future. Brazil is not poor. Brazil is the seventh world economy, if you count the number of nations in north america and europe, being the seventh world economy is a great deal. Also the division in 1st world and 3rd world is schewed upon today. Its akin to saying the N-word. There are much better, non-pejorative terms to be used. Brazil is a part of the…

" if you count the number of nations in north america and europe, being the seventh world economy is a great deal." This is a weird attitude. China is the #2 world economy but indisputably has a top 5 ranking for most impoverished people with hundreds of millions of impoverished people.

It is a great deal because it shows that the money is there and the problem lies elsewhere in society. A poor country with poor GDP and HDI is in a very hard situation. A country with high GDP and poor HDI has a chance of solving its problems and rising up if it can solve its wealth inequality.

Brazil in the past decade made huge advances in that. We are a recent democracy, we've been a military dictatorship for a long time. In our couple decades as a democratic country we've managed to get lots of good things done but of course there are millions impoverished and we're not even close to solving anything. Still the new social programs, the fact that millions moved our of the misery level, this is great.

If we could solve wealth distribution and opportunity, this could be a really great place. Our problem is not the lack of money but the concentration of it and the concentration of access to infrastructure and opportunities as well.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#148

Post by curiouscats »

Others wrote: post #89
soneca wrote: post #64

I'm here to defend the judge's ruling, a position very unpopular among all my friends here in Brazil. Brazilian law regarding regarding privacy of users of internet services is very recent and clear: if a judge order the company to share a specific user data, the company must comply. You can disagree with the law, but the law is there. Now, the judge ordered Whatsapp to share a particular user conversation (a suspect…

But, as it says in the article, WhatsApp just doesn't have the data the judge wants it to turn over. How does it make sense to punish a company for not doing something that it physically cannot do?

Companies can be punished for failure to obey laws. If a company didn't bother to retain records on who bought something they are now required to recall due to safety failures I can't imagine any country would say that is ok. They would be punished.

I don't happen to think the law mentioned is a good one. And I have no idea how the law is actually worded. Depending on how it is worded maybe it is ok to just not keep records so you don't have to provide them. But it is certainly within the power of governments to demand companies operate in a manner that requires them to do certain things and you can't avoid that by for example not keeping the records you are required to.

I sure hope the USA stops the leadership of authoritarian overreaching on laws relating to technology. But it is not at all surprising that others are following the lead of the USA into horrible authoritarian and Orwellian laws given the USA's behavior. Few countries seem willing to put liberty ahead of authoritarianism. The USA is far from perfect but it is a country that has above average potential for promoting liberty.

But the last Bush and Obama administrations have been horrible and both political parties are pushing for horrible laws. A few decent advocates (such as Senator Ron Wyden) for fighting this trend exist but they are not common yet.

This promotion of authoritarian state power is a very dangerous trend that may well have incredibly bad consequences for us. Our history shows authoritarian governments abuse power and I am worried about the last two administrations strong support for increasingly powerful spying abilities of government.

I would hope countries like Brazil lead away from the path the USA is pushing the world down. Unfortunately I don't see much good happening in that way. I hope I am just not aware of good things other countries are doing but I worry that isn't the reason I don't hear about good moves to thwart the dreams of authoritarian regimes.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#149

Post by coliveira »

surye wrote: post #75
raverbashing wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it won't have disastrous consequences. It happened last year as well Typical authoritarian act by a lower court judge that will be reversed in 1 or 2 days Nothing to see here

> Nothing to see here I feel like this is an overly dismissive attitude to have, even, or especially if, everything you said is true and this is some common behavior.

Unfortunately this became common for Brazilians in the last few years. Judges are perceived as having extraordinary powers over everyone's lives. In the last few months, lower court judges have blocked actions of the president of the republic. They have also put in jail some of the richest people in the country, supposedly for corruption, but also for political reasons.

Re: WhatsApp, Used by 100M Brazilians, Shut Down Nationwide Today by a Single Judge

#150

Post by briandear »

bybjorn wrote: post #114
Others wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, as it says in the article, WhatsApp just doesn't have the data the judge wants it to turn over. How does it make sense to punish a company for not doing something that it physically cannot do?

Surely they are physically able to answer the court?

That's my thinking -- an inability to comply could have been addressed with the court. Instead, it appears that they had no representation in front of the court in order to make that argument, have hearings and otherwise determine that compliance is impossible.

The merits of the case are one thing, however not appearing to address those merits (or lack thereof) seems to be the failure point.

But I could be wrong.

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