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Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#141

Post by giancarlostoro »

eternalban wrote: post #50
justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

> even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" There is absolutely no social cost for downvoting without commenting. Adding costs and accountability: - force comment box on downvotes - deduct from karma - flagging only Is it important for HN's community to have a "psychologically safe" [1] at this point in time? I can not think of a more critical time for the "STEM" crowd to have a viable…

I have to say, I prefer when someone responds to my comments vs. an influx of downvotes which don't allow me to learn anything. I come here to learn, not to feel like I can't and shouldn't contribute. I originally got really discouraged from posting anything when all I ever got was downvoted and didn't know why, or how the rules worked here. Also as was mentioned above, the fact that I would make statements that others didn't agree with would get me downvoted to oblivion would stop me from commenting most of the time. I usually ctrl + f to see if anyone else is posting from the same viewpoint as me, and if nobody has I don't bother, some people who probably call themselves open-minded are not as such, everyone has their own prejudices.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#142

Post by zeofig »

williamcotton wrote: post #132
eternalban wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" There is absolutely no social cost for downvoting without commenting. Adding costs and accountability: - force comment box on downvotes - deduct from karma - flagging only Is it important for HN's community to have a "psychologically safe" [1] at this point in time? I can not think of a more critical time for the "STEM" crowd to have a viable…

HackerNews is a marketing channel for a technology investment firm. Why should they care about balanced conversation? What if those balanced conversations somehow promote criticism of companies that they are involved with?

So the community itself should have no say in how things work? It's this sort of attitude that leads me to make comments which get downvoted.

More logically, Ycomb gets a lot of prestige and "free" marketing from the quality and popularity of HN. It's in their interests to maintain and improve that quality. Besides, they're hardly going to lose clients because a couple of negative comments don't get downvoted into oblivion as swiftly as before.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#143

Post by bediger4000 »

How about leaving down and up vote, but including a button for "disagree", which doesn't affect karma. I would use "disagree" instead of downvoting quite often. Leave the downvote button with its karma loss. That lets people downvote trolls/spams/irrationality, but lets the person being disagreed with that something's wrong. A "disagree" button may also help people to write a reply with the reason for disagreeing, rather than just downvoting and moving on, which in my experience happens a lot.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#144

Post by bediger4000 »

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #99
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #21

Interesting. I would expect it to also foster radicalism. By creating an environment where only the most-vocal, least-risk-averse adherents to a particular way of thinking are willing to risk making their ideas known. If you make an environment where only those who are willing to face death, imprisonment, or harassment for their ideas are the ones doing the talking, then you make the only voice being heard be one of…

Radicals don't gain majority support, can be demonized, scapegoated and persecuted into being impotent. It is very easy to rally people with moderate or disparate ideas together against a common enemy. See: witches, anarchists, terrorists, etc

You missed "communists", "homosexuals", "union agitators" and "jews".

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#145

Post by r00fus »

lotharbot wrote: post #85
striking wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN rules don't say anything about the "wrong way" to use the downvote button. If anything, we're encouraged to use it in the way we feel is best.

in the past, pg has used the analogy that upvotes are not only for civility, so downvotes aren't restricted only to incivility. My own personal guideline: upvote = "I would like more comments like this" and downvote = "I would like less comments like this". My reason for wanting less comments of a particular type can be a lot of things -- incivility, factual incorrectness, being off-topic or distracting, being techni…

huh - maybe HN should have some sort of Karma modifiers like Slashdot did?

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#146

Post by r00fus »

marcosdumay wrote: post #134
Grishnakh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, Slashdot used to be great like that. Those people are gone now. They're not on SoylentNews, and there's sure as hell not on here. I don't think they're on Reddit either. They're not anywhere. My guess: they've retired from tech after getting tired of all the BS and nasty personalities, and done something entirely different with their lives. Maybe they took their savings and moved to Costa Rica and opened a resta…

They are probably everywhere, but we lose their insight when they can't post as anonymous or it is hard to do so. Pseudonyms just won't cut it. Anyway, we also lose a great deal of spammers, trolls and just disturbing people. That's the other side of the coin.

I see a lot of throwaway accounts here post interesting stuff - clearly like anon.

Slashdot incurs a large cost (noise) in allowing anon comments - depending on who you ask, the moderation system either barely keeps that in check, or is completely insufficient.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#147

Post by sudojudo »

iolothebard wrote: post #133
justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

Try the new kinder friendlier SJW reddit. I'd been on there since 2005. They can go sit on a rusty nail.

Reddit is hardly a haven for social justice. Them purging hateful subbreddits had more to do with revenue than appeasing "feminazis", more evidence of this is in the changed post ranking algorithm and the hiding of the up/downvote counter. They were desperate for greater monetization when all of this happened; Reddit is a business, not a charity, and its user base has been booming exponentially over the last few years.

Compared to the past (pre-2010) Reddit has become increasingly politically incorrect. Go read top comments on posts about Muslim immigrants, or black crime, or women in tech and you'll get it confused with 4chan. There's no discussion, just vitriol, and any opposition is downvoted into oblivion. I started frequenting the site sometime in 2007, because the layout was more appealing than Slashdot's (still is), and the vibe was similar, but I just can't stomach the discussions within Reddit defaults anymore.

Not sure if it's simply Eternal September, but Reddit is no longer a progressive, free-thinking, forum for nerds; it's not even close.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#148

Post by whybroke »

I certainly self censor and even now am posting semi anonymously obviously.

But those in favor of mass surveillance could answer the study by claiming that if the surveillance is kept secret then 1. it won't stifle minority opinions and 2. it will work better

By saying this they could not only answer the study's concerns but could now advocate zealously punishing whistle blowers.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#149

Post by chrischen »

eternalban wrote: post #50
justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

> even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" There is absolutely no social cost for downvoting without commenting. Adding costs and accountability: - force comment box on downvotes - deduct from karma - flagging only Is it important for HN's community to have a "psychologically safe" [1] at this point in time? I can not think of a more critical time for the "STEM" crowd to have a viable…

Deducting from karma would be a fun experiment. Down voting is already disabled for people without enough karma.

Re: Mass surveillance silences minority opinions, according to study

#150

Post by despinozist »

akamaka wrote: post #92
justsaysmthng wrote: post #27

HN is the most intelligent and open minded online community of this size that I know online. I have deep respect for you guys and girls and your opinions are always enlightening and thought provoking. I really feel much smarter because I have access to all these very valid points of view that you are surfacing. But even this community suffers from this strange phenomena of "group think" which leads me to go into this…

I looked at your comment history, and I don't think you got downvoted because of your opinions. It's more likely a matter of writing style. The folks here like efficient communication and concise, well thought-out arguments. Some of your long comments are more along the lines of Socratic self-debates where you are thinking through a subject in detail. There's nothing wrong with it, but it just doesn't fit the medium.…

Sounds like you're describing me.
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