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Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

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Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more fitting with the US style of "just toss money at it" philosophy. Spending money effectively is hard, but the US has absurd amounts so just try to outspend the inefficiency instead.

It is hard for the feds to do more than throw money. Education is a state or even a local issue. Obama cannot be seen telling school boards what to teach else half the country recoil from the concept.

If they want to throw money around, they should fund an individual tutor voucher program which offers students a choice in how the money is spent.

Then students can spend the money directly on additional teacher salaries by seeking out individual instruction rather than spend it on proprietary learning materials.

Improving education isn't hard if the student/teacher ratio is 1.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#142

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

This was my only thought. When a system is that efficient at squandering resources, you can't fix it by throwing more resources at it. I'm reminded of L.A. Unified and the iPad debacle: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ipad-curriculum-... They bought over 120,000 iPads, they paid above retail, and nobody ever thought of implementing a policy assigning liability or establishing any procedure in the event of…

School vouchers or, even better, tutor vouchers are the way to go.

If students actually had a choice in how education funding was allocated, they would spend it directly on higher teacher salaries to pay for the additional teacher labor hours necessary to receive individual one-on-one instruction.

They wouldn't spend it on proprietary learning materials, large classrooms, large facilities, large administrative offices, and large campuses.

Get rid of the "smart classrooms" and allow students to pay directly for instruction with a student\teacher ratio of 1.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#143
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my only thought. When a system is that efficient at squandering resources, you can't fix it by throwing more resources at it. I'm reminded of L.A. Unified and the iPad debacle: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ipad-curriculum-... They bought over 120,000 iPads, they paid above retail, and nobody ever thought of implementing a policy assigning liability or establishing any procedure in the event of…

School vouchers or, even better, tutor vouchers are the way to go. If students actually had a choice in how education funding was allocated, they would spend it directly on higher teacher salaries to pay for the additional teacher labor hours necessary to receive individual one-on-one instruction. They wouldn't spend it on proprietary learning materials, large classrooms, large facilities, large administrative office…

I have no children, but I want to have an educated population.

When you take my tax dollars and give them to parents as vouchers, you reduce or eliminate my democratic right to influence how we educate the next generation.

Why should only the children and parents have a say in that process?

I'm not saying an elected school board provides perfect oversight, as the iPad debacle shows, but at least it has more public oversight than washing our hands of the problem and delegating all responsibility and economic power to the parents.

Also, there are any number of college students who use their money to go to schools with "proprietary learning materials, large classrooms, large facilities, large administrative offices, and large campuses", so no reason to believe that things will be different for primary and secondary schools.

And there is plenty of evidence to believe that parents are attracted by schools which advertise "smart classrooms", and tout (incorrectlu, IMO) how they use computers to teach more effectively than a teacher does.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#144

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>Learning about computation is just as important these days. Why?

Perhaps one reason is that outside of school math, computation is actually how most people do math, and to a considerable extent, science. Don't get me wrong, I was a math & physics major in college, and love doing derivations and proofs by hand. But in my present job, if I have to solve a math problem, or perform an experiment, I reach for my computer. As it stands, school math is limited to problems that can be sol…

I think what you are overlooking is that kids CANNOT really do math. 67% or 8th graders are rated as "not proficient" in math, and that is compared to the government standard (which I would bet money is incredibly low). How will they do algebra in a program when they can't do algebra on paper?

BTW, its even worse for 12th grade.

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#145
post #23

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I think you're overestimating how hard CS is compared to other fields (hint: it's not harder). They teach calculus in high school. And calculus-based physics. They have autoshop and woodshop which is honestly very similar to the kind of CS I would imagine high school students learning (understanding systems, debugging, building them, learning which pieces fit where and how to make them do what you want, following tut…

what percentage of high school students actually learn calculus and physics (and get at least OK grades)?

Only 26% of high school seniors are considered "Proficient" at math, which I can assure you is a MUCH lower bar than knowing calculus.

http://www.nationsreportcard.gov/

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#146
post #7

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great points. I see this program and wonder why we (in the US) go into such contortions away from teaching - math. Just teach kids how to think in math and they will take to most CS topics like fish in water.

We already teach 12 years of math, from 1st grade to 12th: Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, polynomials, rationals, pre-algebra, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, pre-calculus, calculus, sometimes probability and statistics. How much more math do you want? Also, you do not need to know Calculus, or pre-calculus, or trigonometry, or geometry, or algebra, or pre-algebra in order to build, say an Android…

Unfortunately, our schools DON'T teach 12 years of math. They act like they do, but kids don't learn it. And very few kids get to the pre-calc level. Particularly in the schools that will be targeted by this government waste.

If you read HN, you had a better math and science education than 90% of this country, don't act like every kid was as precocious or as motivated as you.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Degrees from standford or mit only matter in your first job, or to idiots. There is a shortage of good practitioners. In the startup I worked in, in seattle, we basically failed because we could never hire the 15 more people on top of the 5 we had. We paid market prices plus the usual worthless questionable stock options, but everyone we liked had multiple offers. My new company wants to hire 20 devs a month for the…

> .... only matter in your first job, or to idiots. Today, every job is your first job. We are all contractors, constantly re-interviewing and justifying ourself to our customers. And the idiots are in charge. Every founder who needs my help seems to be a 20-something kid who thinks knowledge is something you can pick up at a trade show or week-long intensive at some resort.

Your last line doesn't make sense. If they think that, then they are going to fail. Hence, they won't be in charge...

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> .... only matter in your first job, or to idiots. Today, every job is your first job. We are all contractors, constantly re-interviewing and justifying ourself to our customers. And the idiots are in charge. Every founder who needs my help seems to be a 20-something kid who thinks knowledge is something you can pick up at a trade show or week-long intensive at some resort.

Your last line doesn't make sense. If they think that, then they are going to fail. Hence, they won't be in charge...

In an ideal world yes. In realworld, many "founders" are not there because of any great skill to competence. I now a couple that are just rich kids playing with a few million of family money. They hire their friends and work on getting investor money to keep the party going, but nobody has any real hope for the long term. Being involved with a tech startup is almost a fashion trend for some people.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#149
post #34
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, I don't know what planet you're living on where people don't need to use algebra. Almost everybody I know uses algebra regularly. How do you suggest we do statistics or any kind of science or teach kids anything about the world without first teaching algebra? Formal logic is essentially a more abstract and complicated algebra which isn't useful in real life. And understanding the world around you (science) and l…

> Uhh, I don't know what planet you're living on where people don't need to use algebra. Almost everybody I know uses algebra regularly. Yet, only 20% of those surveyed reported using even basic algebra at work, and a lot of those were tradespeople who could have easily been taught the necessary math post-K-10. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/heres-ho... . > And understanding the world around you…

>Yet, only 20% of those surveyed reported using even basic algebra at work, and a lot of those were tradespeople who could have easily been taught the necessary math post-K-10.

I agree with you most 'work' today, especially white-collar but non-professional work is mind-numbing and empty and requires almost no skills of any kind besides a pulse. But that's just work. Have fun teaching people about their retirement plans without algebra. Balancing their budgets/checkbooks. Estimating costs of things. Understanding risk. Making decisions about anything that involves quantity. Should I have to call and pay a professional algebra-expert to understand and make decisions about my credit card? How will I know if he overcharges me?

>This is an ideological statement more than anything else. I can just as easily say it's much more important for educated citizens to learn history and philosophy, so they can understand how the social structures around them work.

Of course it's ideological; the entire project of education based on a mix of ideology and a purely a capitalist endeavor designed to provide government subsidized job training for tomorrow's workers. I absolutely agree with you about history and philosophy, but we aren't talking about removing history or philosophy from the curriculum, we are talking about removing science and mathematics. I think /every/ student should learn physics and biology and philosophy and history and rhetoric and statistics at least at a rudimentary level -- half of which require, among other things, mathematics.

Having a sense of how something generally is from what you learned a long time ago in high school is intangible but very valuable. Does it really matter where or what Asia is, or whether or not it's a continent? Does it matter whether America was founded 200 years ago or 2000 years ago? Does it matter what the Bill of Rights says? For the vast majority of people, no. But it's important to have a sense for the world as it is. The universal children's curriculum is a tiny slice of human knowledge given to everyone so that nobody is as ignorant in any topic (save perhaps subsistence farming) as the humans of 1000 years ago were. That's called progress.

>I think it's a lot more useful to teach a kid that here are fallacious ways of trying to prove a point--something they can use in real life--than teaching them about the periodic table or cell division

Informal logic and rhetoric would be a welcome addition to a curriculum that often doesn't include any sort of philosophical reasoning at all, I agree. But I think it's useful for a different reason. Argumentation is NEVER about deductive reasoning or being correct in real life, which is why formal deduction and logic is completely useless outside of a classroom -- even more useless than the periodic table or cell division. Real life is only about persuasion. And the list of logical fallacies is a list of effective persuasive techniques: if they weren't effective ways to fallaciously argue nobody would ever bother mentioning them. So I'm a little torn on teaching high school students lists of highly effective rhetorical weapons. I've seen the consequences of having them unleashed on internet commenters and the results so far are grim.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#150
I had an excellent intro CS teacher in 9th grade who was ex-Army with an actual CS degree. He also taught Algebra. We got to spend a year of course basically playing around in Hypercard.

I also had a mediocre programming class in 10th grade at the Sr. High school taught by a part time business teacher. We spent a semester programming in Basic on a decade old IBM box. You can guess which class was the better influence on my decision to go into CS full-time.

The frustrating thing was that there was an entire lab full of 5-6 year old Macs that we were not allowed to touch outside of typing classes, so the decision to use the crappy 10 year old non-GUI machines was basically curriculum related.

The point being, teachers are important (and this initiative won't help with that), but even getting some good tech into the hands of students would help more than you realize. There are still schools with not enough resources to teach a decent CS course or more than a vague idea of what kind of curriculum would cut it in the real world.

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