Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours • Hacker News Board

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#141

Post by jsprogrammer » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 11:19 AM UTC

eduardordm wrote: post #30

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #5

The news is misrepresenting what is actually happening. A judge ruled for a 48 hour ban of WhatsApp from telcos to try to coerce WhatsApp into releasing private chat information for an ongoing criminal investigation (wild guess: they want information from politically exposed actors due to the recent corruption investigations). There are precedents, and that's a tactic local judges are using to try to get cooperation…

My wife is a judge and she is not alarmed. She is terrified. We are green card holders and came back to the country 16 years ago. Tonight was the first time we had a conversation about leaving this place for good.

Your wife is a non-citizen judge?

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#142

Post by julioneander » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 11:22 AM UTC

fernandomm wrote: post #126

The real reason is that WhatsApp refused to provide information about a PCC member. PCC is the largest criminal organization in Brazil. It's involved in several criminal activities like drug dealing and gun trafficking. It was also responsible for "closing" Sao Paulo city some years ago forcing people to stay at their homes as well as killing hundreds of cops ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primeiro_Comando_da_Capita…

It scares to think that a single decision from a judge can suspend the most widely used communication service in Brazil like that. The whole nation was affected by a decision that concerns to a few people only.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#143

Post by lagadu » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 11:23 AM UTC

cthalupa wrote: post #101

kuschku wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that if WhatsApp doesn’t want to be blocked, they have to follow the laws. And so they are blocked for 48 hours, warning them that they might be blocked permanently. It’s the only way to deal with lawbreaking companies in a globalized world.

>It’s the only way to deal with lawbreaking companies in a globalized world. Fundamentally, I think it's ludicrous to think you should international companies to the laws of your own country. Fundamentally, WhatsApp is not a lawbreaking company - they are not subject to Brazilian law. You can't break a rule that isn't actually imposed on you. From a practical perspective, it doesn't matter for Brazilians. The end res…

> Even if I believed in following all of these laws, I am now expected to know all of them?

Yes. Yes you are. You are expected to follow all laws of where you have a presence or face the consequences they'll impose on you for it, which is exactly what is happening here.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#144

Post by msh » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 11:29 AM UTC

lagadu wrote: post #130

msh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's not the international legal definition for a business presence. My point is that Brazil should follow legal procedures and have a American judge issue a supena. That's what a MLAT is for.

They are following legal procedures. Brazilian ones, which are the only ones they have to care about. Why would they possibly care in the slightest what American courts have to say?

Because they want to enforce their law against a american company.

There are a reason many countries have MLAT's

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#145

Post by briandear » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 11:33 AM UTC

adenot wrote: post #35

eduardordm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife is a judge and she is not alarmed. She is terrified. We are green card holders and came back to the country 16 years ago. Tonight was the first time we had a conversation about leaving this place for good.

I thought if you leave US for more than 3 (?) months you loose your green card status.

You really only have to set foot in the US once every six months. My wife (now a US citizen) and I would have to make trips to the US every six months to keep her green card alive.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#146

Post by msh » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 11:34 AM UTC

germanier wrote: post #140

msh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if the US wants info on users of a German app who have no servers or offices in the US it should just give it to them? Even if the offense they are suspected of is not illegal in Germany? My point is that Brazil should follow legal procedures and have a American judge issue a supena. That's what a MLAT is for.

I'm sure the Brazilian judge followed Brazilian legal procedures. That's the entire point of being a Brazilian judge. There might be other means to achieve a goal but that doesn't mean what happened isn't legal. In your example, if that German app was targeted to US users (e.g. by localization and marketing) then yes, they should follow US laws. That's a test German courts use to determine whether they have jurisdict…

I think you are mixing up the countries in your example.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#147

Post by embik » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 11:40 AM UTC

sounds wrote: post #72

eduardordm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife is a judge and she is not alarmed. She is terrified. We are green card holders and came back to the country 16 years ago. Tonight was the first time we had a conversation about leaving this place for good.

Dictator-like behavior has a polarizing effect, which is generally the precursor to large realignments (and possibly violence). On that note: please be careful! "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." - Stars Wars Episode 4 Large realignments are the fallout: those who benefit from the dictatorship will be in favor of it. Dictators also have difficulty maintaining their…

It's very interesting that we perceive this (public) shutdown as "dictator-like" behaviour while the US uses gag orders, laws and secret courts to force (tech) companies into complying. If you don't want to, you have to shut down your company (see Lavabit). Yet Brasilia is "anti-technology" (sic) because they're not abusing their power in secret.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#148

Post by hudell » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 11:42 AM UTC

barbolo wrote: post #120

tabacof wrote: post #7

This is insane, this judge must be on a power trip. WhatsApp is now part of Brazilian social life and economy. Everyone here is part of many groups of friends, family or workmates, that is where most instant communication happens. In my company, our deployment engineers, who usually are on very remote places with bad and unreliable internet, rely on WhatsApp. I'm not saying this is the best practice, but this is simp…

I'm a client of Bradesco, a popular bank in Brazil. I've chosen to migrate my account to a digital account called "Bradesco Prime Digital". The main communication channel with my account manager is WhatsApp, so he can take the day off. I'm also selling my house and I'm pretty sure that every Real Estate agents in São Paulo use WhatsApp as the main communication channel. So no visits today. I was having a conversation…

After reading this and other messages like this, I feel like I'm living on a bubble. I hardly ever use whatsapp and didn't know it was so widely used by everyone around me.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#149

Post by germanier » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 12:18 PM UTC

msh wrote: post #146

germanier wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure the Brazilian judge followed Brazilian legal procedures. That's the entire point of being a Brazilian judge. There might be other means to achieve a goal but that doesn't mean what happened isn't legal. In your example, if that German app was targeted to US users (e.g. by localization and marketing) then yes, they should follow US laws. That's a test German courts use to determine whether they have jurisdict…

I think you are mixing up the countries in your example.

Sorry for the confusion, I clarified something above.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#150

Post by beothorn » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:05 PM UTC

necessity wrote: post #10

From someone living in Brazil, this article is a clickbait full of misinformation. First off, we are nowhere near "shutting down social web". WhatsApp was shutdown by a court order because they did not comply with a subpoena to hand over information from a user in July and August. I recently submitted a link with a local (Brazilian) newspaper explaining the issue. >If Brazil’s conservative Congress gets its way, they…

It doesn't say contents, it says registros de conexão "connections log". The intent was to log IP adresses and dates, not content, but it is known that the interpretation of the text would be up to our judicial system. It also does not say without a court order. It says they can require them to log those ips, but access to these information requires a court order (as said on chapter 2 item I)

There are other ambiguities regarding who should keep those logs, ISP or service providers.

Free Whatsapp and facebook does hurt net neutrality. It undermines competition and leads to a division between services that are "free" and the ones which are not, on a ISP level.

That's not what article 2 says, article 2 is a preamble with the intentions of the marco civil and contains no definition of rules nor obligations. The removal of those videos are not based on marco civil, but on other laws and our own constitution.

The problem is not the Marco Civil, but how it is being interpreted. Our judges do not understand what is cryptography. Our population don't understand and doesn't care. People are just upset that whatsapp is offline.