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Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

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Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#141

Post by dang »

n7c3c1 wrote: post #129
dang wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop posting uncivil and/or unsubstantive and/or inflammatory comments to Hacker News. We ban accounts that do that repeatedly, and you've done it repeatedly.

The quote is completely substantive. Just because you disagree doesn't make it uncivil. But is the irony of you threatening to ban me for "inflammatory comments" and the quote itself--about the culture of militant political correctness--not lost on you? Do you see the irony?

I like South Park too but calling that contribution "substantive" is quite a stretch.

There's no view that can't be expressed civilly and substantively, so accusations of politically correct censorship on HN don't hold much water in my opinion. It's usually just a fig leaf for low-signal ranting, when the correct thing to do is to be a good citizen and improve your behavior. Most HN users don't have trouble doing this, regardless of where they fall ideologically.

Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#142

Post by SamReidHughes »

SilasX wrote: post #136
ctdonath wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The perspective from someone who learned English as a first language is that it's just as annoying a linguistic issue as it is to those who learned English later. Those of us raised on English likewise have a bad time with ambiguous gender situations ("he/she"). Used to be just "he" when ambiguous/irrelevant, but sociopolitical outrage over possible misapplication of the pronoun discourages such use, so our choice is…

Agree about it being annoying for native English speakers as well, but I don't think you have to be PC to balk at the use of "he" for the ambiguous case. Brains work by association, and forcing "he" to do double-duty is simply confusing. For example, let's say you tell a story and refer to a generic surgeon as "he", when some patient's father is known to be far away. Later, you have the surgeon saying "I can't operat…

> I don't think you have to be PC to balk at the use of "he" for the ambiguous case.

You're right. When I was a kid, I'd go with "they" for both ambiguous and the generic case, simply because it's illogical to have an arbitrary assumption, which is maybe a post-hoc justification that I made as a teenager. Eventually I ended up trying to train myself to use "he" in the generic case, because it seemed to me like my habit was just super-semantic nerdiness. But for the ambiguous case, if it's talking about a specific person, but whose sex you don't know, it'd still be very weird to not use "they".

Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#143

Post by pvg »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #57
pvg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a contrived example since the typical use of the singular they is when the gender of the subject is unknown. You might be getting downvotes for complaining about downvotes.

I am guessing you haven't talked with that many people who describe themselves as non-gender conforming, then. I was actually paraphrasing a conversation I had with some recently about their partner.

I'm not sure what to tell you other than 'I'm guessing I'm going to make unwarranted assumptions about you'

Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#144

Post by ctdonath »

cmdkeen wrote: post #109
ctdonath wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The perspective from someone who learned English as a first language is that it's just as annoying a linguistic issue as it is to those who learned English later. Those of us raised on English likewise have a bad time with ambiguous gender situations ("he/she"). Used to be just "he" when ambiguous/irrelevant, but sociopolitical outrage over possible misapplication of the pronoun discourages such use, so our choice is…

"now common" - the singular they was used by Chaucer, Shakespeare, Austen, Thackery and Shaw. Traditional grammar types might not like it but that doesn't mean it is some new usage.

I didn't insinuate it was "new usage". I've seen it go from rarely & uncomfortably used to, as I said, "now common".

Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#145

Post by mkrfox »

warfangle wrote: post #126
volaski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see it in notifications from social apps. "Jenny has started following you. Follow them back", etc. Because a lot of apps don't ask people to enter their gender they just resort to "them" instead of "him" or "her". It's really as annoying as people just using "her" everywhere just to be safe.

You'll see this in Facebook, too. Even though they ask for your gender. But that's because you can choose which set of pronouns you prefer. (They also have a pretty okay list of genders to choose from, if you're into labeling things)

I just wish they had "Nonbinary" for people who feel weird about the word genderqueer.

Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#146

Post by ctdonath »

SilasX wrote: post #136
ctdonath wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The perspective from someone who learned English as a first language is that it's just as annoying a linguistic issue as it is to those who learned English later. Those of us raised on English likewise have a bad time with ambiguous gender situations ("he/she"). Used to be just "he" when ambiguous/irrelevant, but sociopolitical outrage over possible misapplication of the pronoun discourages such use, so our choice is…

Agree about it being annoying for native English speakers as well, but I don't think you have to be PC to balk at the use of "he" for the ambiguous case. Brains work by association, and forcing "he" to do double-duty is simply confusing. For example, let's say you tell a story and refer to a generic surgeon as "he", when some patient's father is known to be far away. Later, you have the surgeon saying "I can't operat…

"There are fewer interest groups looking out for the latter..."

As an introvert, I find the implicit plurality of "they" more disturbing than gender ambiguity of the known-singular "he/she". I'm not a group, I'm a singular self, and the speaker/author shouldn't apply a plural to a known singular; being an anonymous audience/subject, gender ambiguity is more understandable.

Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#147

Post by mkrfox »

warfangle wrote: post #83
colept wrote: post #51

When writing "he or she" - they does seem like a viable substitute when gender is irrelevant. But I cannot stand this new trend of making gender irrelevant for the sake of pushing gender lines. We use gendered pronouns for context clues, metadata, and comedy. It's a natural construct and universal to many languages.

'They' isn't a viable substitute just when gender is irrelevant. There isn't really a label for what I identify as, but it is not 'she' or 'he,' it's somewhere in-between and neither at the same time. So even 'he or she' wouldn't apply to me: I'm not one or the other. I _prefer_ xe/etc; but I'm absolutely 100% fine with they/them. Just don't call me he (because I'm not) or she (because I'm not). ;) Does that make sen…

I saw a comic strip once where someone was talking to a nonbinary person. Somewhere in it, the (presumably) cisgendered person said "but then I won't know your gender!"

And the nonbinary person replied "that's okay, because I don't know it either."

(I probably mis-remembered parts, and I'm not telling it anywhere near as well)

Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#148

Post by volaski »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #77
volaski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see it in notifications from social apps. "Jenny has started following you. Follow them back", etc. Because a lot of apps don't ask people to enter their gender they just resort to "them" instead of "him" or "her". It's really as annoying as people just using "her" everywhere just to be safe.

Why is using "her" everywhere worse than using "him" everywhere?

Tell me, where did I say that? This behavior of yours (putting words in people's mouth and accusing or insinuating them of sexism/racism/elitism etc.) is exactly why this stupid "singular they" phenomenon has arisen.

Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#149

Post by volaski »

panglott wrote: post #28
volaski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see it in notifications from social apps. "Jenny has started following you. Follow them back", etc. Because a lot of apps don't ask people to enter their gender they just resort to "them" instead of "him" or "her". It's really as annoying as people just using "her" everywhere just to be safe.

Why is it annoying?

There are certain cases where it feels very ridiculous. For example, some authors use "her" to refer to even a group of people generally known to be predominantly male oriented. While it definitely won't be criticized by any feminist group, it really is distracting from narrative point of view because most readers feel it's unnatural. I remember thinking "This guy is clearly talking about dudes, why is he using female pronoun?" I also think it's stupid to have to use female pronoun just to be safe, because this in itself is sexism--it implies that they are afraid of feminists accusing them but not afraid of masculinists (if it even exists). When I say it's annoying I am not saying these people are annoying, I'm saying the reality we live in is annoying. In some non-english cultures they don't have this problem because they have ways to refer to people without being gender specific.

Re: Singular ‘They’ Is Word of the Year

#150

Post by JoeAltmaier »

volaski wrote: post #149
panglott wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it annoying?

There are certain cases where it feels very ridiculous. For example, some authors use "her" to refer to even a group of people generally known to be predominantly male oriented. While it definitely won't be criticized by any feminist group, it really is distracting from narrative point of view because most readers feel it's unnatural. I remember thinking "This guy is clearly talking about dudes, why is he using femal…

Now we know how women feel, all day long every day. It'd be reasonable to say "get over it", which is essentially what women hear all their lives.
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