Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits • Hacker News Board

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#141

Post by MBCook » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 10:42 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #134

steven2012 wrote: post #65

I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black, and on 2 hands the number of coworkers that I indirectly worked with that were black. I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. Trying to solve the diversity issue at the hiring end, when the numb…

Role models matter tremendously too, and that's something that we don't see much, something that's a real problem. Now, I'm biased toward capability. I think progress is made almost entirely by people who possess both talent and will to power. But that's innate, and evenly distributed across racial and gender lines. So differences in outcomes are, broadly, due to privilege (specifically, resources). If someone has ac…

> For an ambitious child, the limits of "success" are the limits of what they see. That's what they see in their parents and their parents' friends, their neighborhood, etc.

I've once saw of glimpse of this first hand and it was really depressing. Knew a waiter at a restaurant my family frequented. One day he was making chit-chat with us and talking about his son (who would have been rather young, 4-8) and that his dream for his son was to be a restaurant manager or a supervisor at a lawn care business or something like that. That was how high that family was dreaming, I guess that was as high as they could see being reasonable (unless they kid was a genius/pro-athlete).

From hearing stories of women in the industry seeing that one person that looks like them that shows the 'you can be this too' seems like it's often a huge help or an important moment.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#142

Post by jusben1369 » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 10:44 PM UTC

I thought it was a fascinating argument that 1) Twitter is struggling to gain new users and 2) Twitter is staffed by male caucasians and asians so no wonder it's struggling to gain new users.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#143

Post by gotchange » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 10:50 PM UTC

sktrdie wrote: post #127

msvan wrote: post #121

I see many people here being skeptical about the arguments for diversity, and asking what the utility is for Twitter. But part of the question is about the utility for minorities as well. This debate is really about minorities being shut out of yet another high-paying industry because they [didn't have a computer growing up/couldn't get in to some brand-name college/didn't have a supportive childhood environment/othe…

The free-market shapes it to be this way. A company as big as Twitter is simply a result of such system. In fact the free market is the opposite of racist/sexist/whatever... it strives entirely on performing the best it can - ironically, even at the cost of the worker's mental health - thereby not giving a shit about who it hires as long as they can perform at the maximum capacity.

I share the same perspective too.

Capital should be blind to all these qualitative descriptors like race, biological gender, age etc. Successful capitalists are always looking to maximize the return on their investment and they don't subscribe to these inconsequential notions, all what they care for is making money for them. If you're a Martian and are capable of doubling their profits every two years or so, they would be all over you and discard any prejudices toward you.

Money $$$ talks after all esp with the capitalists.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#144

Post by Kalium » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 10:51 PM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #101

volaski wrote: post #54

What is wrong with the statement "We won't lower the bar"? Some people criticize that that statement is racist, but they aren't thinking about the context. When people ask companies to do something about diversity, they're normally asking to carve out more quota for certain minority group, just like how universities carve out certain portion of their student quota for people who donate large amount of money to get in…

It's factually wrong. If you (try to) eliminate race from hiring, you don't lower the bar. You raise it, because suddenly there's a group of so-so engineers who now can't get a job just because they're white. If that feels uncomfortable, replace "white" with "MIT student". Or any other in-group. If you almost exclusively hire from a single group, at some point just being part of that group makes it easier for you to…

That's an interesting perspective. I say this because I have personally encountered people who argue that the value of a presumed-novel viewpoint should be expected to outweigh a sufficiently small difference of technical skill or similar in hiring decisions.

Anyway. Are you sure it's a good idea to compare numbers like recent grad percentages and Fortune-500 CEOs? These two in particular strike me as separated by several decades in which society has changed. Perhaps not the most useful comment on current society.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#145

Post by beat » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 10:54 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #141

beat wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Role models matter tremendously too, and that's something that we don't see much, something that's a real problem. Now, I'm biased toward capability. I think progress is made almost entirely by people who possess both talent and will to power. But that's innate, and evenly distributed across racial and gender lines. So differences in outcomes are, broadly, due to privilege (specifically, resources). If someone has ac…

> For an ambitious child, the limits of "success" are the limits of what they see. That's what they see in their parents and their parents' friends, their neighborhood, etc. I've once saw of glimpse of this first hand and it was really depressing. Knew a waiter at a restaurant my family frequented. One day he was making chit-chat with us and talking about his son (who would have been rather young, 4-8) and that his d…

I grew up poor, what they call "white trash" in the south. I saw this firsthand. I knew I wanted out, so I went to college at an excellent private liberal arts school. One of the most amazing eye-openers there was meeting the parents of other students, and meeting alumni, people who had done amazing things with their lives. A few years earlier, success to me meant owning your own motorcycle dealership.

Today, I've shook the hands of multiple billionaires. I could not have even imagined that as a child. But I'm lucky. I'm very intelligent, talented, lack major health issues, and I'm white, male, and American. The combination of innate talent and privilege opened a lot of doors for me.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#146

Post by Nadya » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 10:55 PM UTC

Lawtonfogle wrote: post #140

Nadya wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to take the time to thank you for answering in good faith - rather than assuming I had asked in bad faith. So, thank you. Unfortunately I'm not able, in good faith, to take a stand for or against your argument. Consider this conceding the argument, but not being entirely convinced (allow me to explain). Initially, I would like to reject it. Because as a libertarian-leaning trans, I fall under both examples y…

The key thing is that I'm on neither side of the debate. I see merits to both sides and look for a way to work out both. Also, I like to work on arguments for any side even if I don't agree with that side (I have sometimes devil advocated for positions just because no one else would touch them). Personally, at the current time, I see too many problems with quotas for them to be useful. Namely is the perception proble…

So you're essentially where I stand then. :P

I consider myself the "Milo" of transexuals and have a large disconnect with most people who consider themselves part of the "LGBT Movement". Many of which are right up there with PC culture (e.g telling me I can't use the word "tranny", even when referring to myself? Fuck off.)

While I do see the problem and in many places agree - I do not agree with the proposed methods of solving it. That especially includes "quotas" - unofficial or official. Nobody wants to be the "token black guy" (even if there are "40 token black guys") just to improve a diversity number. Which unfortunately is how many tech companies seem to be trying to resolve the "wow that company isn't diverse" criticisms being flung at them.

"If I weren't homosexual, I'd be the largest homophobe." - Milo Yiannopoulos

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#147

Post by gotchange » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 11:07 PM UTC

theuttick wrote: post #24

The one thing that he never explains is exactly what "diversity" he is looking for at Twitter. It seems that the only thing that matters to him is the color of the person's skin. In other words, an African-American MIT CS grad that grew up in Iowa is somehow going to come at problems differently than a white guy from the same town and school and with the same background. I wouldn't really call that diversity, that's…

> that's just racism in that one man's view on a technical matter is somehow different because of his race.

It's just ethocentrism or more specifically in his case Afro-centrism. Racism as a condemnation shouldn't be bandied about this lightly. The US media already devalued it and made it a joke by their excessive and irresponsible use of the term.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#148

Post by yummyfajitas » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 11:24 PM UTC

enumjorge wrote: post #138

yummyfajitas wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My belief is that there probably isn't one. I'm still waiting for someone to provide one. As a Bayesian, I can certainly tell you how my perspective differs from folks like Leonid Pekelis or Evan Miller. As a person who leans towards parametric statistics and modelling, I can tell you how my perspective differs from the machine learning types. Why is it so difficult to provide the (alleged) black perspective?

I think you're only considering the theoretical/mathematical side of software development. Sure, you can argue (and I would agree) that math is isolated from culture, and as such, a programmer's race can have no impact on how well he or she implements bubble sort. But software development is not just about CS theory. You're selling a product to people, and thus you introduce the human factor. If say, Facebook one day…

The vast majority of developers, even at twitter, are not building user facing frontend features for the consumer market. They are building ETL jobs to shovel data from postgres to vertica, a CRUD app used to track erroneous shipments, or feeding VaR estimates to the SEC. At most you are arguing that product teams at consumer oriented companies need a few token minorities.

But supposing these affinity effects are real, and extend beyond consumer products, then if your customer base doesn't contain these minorities then their presence on your product team might be harmful. I.e., MongoDB or Washington Square Tech should NOT hire a black guy, since a black guy's experience is significantly different from the (white/Asian) rockstar ninjas and banksters making up the customer base. Is this also a conclusion you would endorse?

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#149

Post by x3n0ph3n3 » Wed, Nov 04, 2015, 11:56 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #105

steven2012 wrote: post #65

I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black, and on 2 hands the number of coworkers that I indirectly worked with that were black. I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. Trying to solve the diversity issue at the hiring end, when the numb…

This is exactly the same as saying that the reason women had little power in America before 1920 was because they couldn't vote. Which is true, but completely overlooks why women didn't have the right to vote. Women didn't have power because they were oppressed by men for centuries. Black people don't have "as good an education" because they've been systematically abandoned by the most powerful parts of society for c…

So the fix is to lower hiring standards? What exactly are you promoting as a fix here?

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#150

Post by wpietri » Thu, Nov 05, 2015, 12:12 AM UTC

steven2012 wrote: post #65

I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black, and on 2 hands the number of coworkers that I indirectly worked with that were black. I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. Trying to solve the diversity issue at the hiring end, when the numb…

> I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general.

You might consider reading the excellent paper, "Are Emily And Greg More Employable Than Lakisha And Jamal? A Field Experiment On Labor Market Discrimination": http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

My take is that if tech really, truly has no race or gender discrimination problems, that would be remarkably different than a lot of other US industries. One quick way to check is to ask your friends in those groups whether that's case. The ones I've talked to mostly disagree with you.

> The real way to solve it is at the bottom of the funnel [...]

I am strongly opposed to the notion that there is one real way to solve this problem. That you believe you have a plausible solution that might help is great. Definitely do it. But that's no reason to discourage people from trying other solutions.