Live data from Hacker News

Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

medium.com

141–150 of 153 posts

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm afraid you've not given a complete definition of multiplication. You need to also show that multiplication is commutative, which is indeed a property of multiplication but MUST be included in the definition. At the child's level (primary age child, NOT high-school) then it is unnecessary to introduce the distributive property. But you honestly have to make the associative property very, very clear of the chil…

Well, maybe you can find a source, but I can only find sources that define multiplication as I have and then mention that multiplication of, say, real numbers, is commutative.

>define $EQUIVALENCE [...] and then mention $PROPERTY

When you keep pointing back to "a x b = b+b...+b", as The Definition without including the properties, it means you're mixing up the orthography[0] of multiplication with the real underlying idea of multiplication.

A math definition includes that all properties must simultaneously be true. It's the limitations of writing (orthography[0]) that we state things one thing before the other. The phrase "and then" used as a sequential condition is not applicable. Instead, if all properties are true, you thus have the definition.

Here's another "definition"[1] that states the summation in reverse order: "In simple algebra, multiplication is the process of calculating the result when a number a is taken b times."

e.g. "when a number 5 is taken 3 times" ... which is the repeated addition the child carried out.

That wikipedia stated multiplication as "a x b = b+b...+b" while Wolfram MathWorld stated it as "a is taken b times." is a difference in orthography and not definition. Unfortunately, you're working backward from an arbitrary orthography and judging the child to be wrong.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthography

[1]https://books.google.com/books?id=aFDWuZZslUUC&pg=PA1974&lpg...

The contents of the Weisstein book was also used in Wolfram MathWorld:

[2]http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Multiplication.html

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the opposite way about the English reading "5 times 3". In English, the subject comes first, so I would expect the sentence to mean take 5, use "times" as a verb, and 3 as the adverb. Likewise, if you read it as "5 multiplied by 3", you would expect to take five, three times.

Exactly. And this is why we use math operators rather than English terms for math operations. If you want to specifically mean 5 times a group of 3, define a new operator for it, like 5 ○ 3. Don't 'overload' the x operator with your own arbitrary meaning.

Ummm... I think you just overloaded the x operator yourself!

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the same!

Right, for different definitions of "same". I think that the OP attempts to explain that there are different definitions of "same" that are each valid.

I can't see how!

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#144

If the author of this article instead references the definition of multiplication of natural numbers on wikipedia [1], then the student is correct since $a \times b = a + a + \dots + a$ with that definition. Without access to this particular teacher's curriculum materials, it's not possible to know for sure what definition is being referenced by the "repeated addition strategy". I'm inclined to assume the teacher kno…

The Peano Axioms are not about defining what 'addition' and 'multiplication' are; they're about presenting a model of the natural numbers along with the operations of addition and multiplication in first-order logic. This makes them great fodder for worksheets in proof-writing courses (and I did glance through your worksheet; it looks like a great resource!), but doesn't necessarily expose the standard mathematical notion of what 'addition' and 'multiplication' are! If you ask a random mathematician out of the blue what the axioms of arithmetic are, my guess is that you won't often get the Peano axioms as an answer, but rather the standard algebraic ring or field axioms.

Although it seems very common to define multiplication as repeated addition in dictionaries and materials for kids, it is in fact only a valid definition for a rather narrow conception of numbers, i.e. the natural numbers. It doesn't work without exceptions for the Integers, the Rationals, or the Reals. Considering that we want students to eventually be able to deal with the Real numbers, I think it would be better to avoid defining multiplication to be something that doesn't work outside of the Naturals! We would be in quite a pickle trying to explain the calculation of the area of a circle in terms of repeated addition...

By calling what they're teaching the 'repeated addition strategy' it seems like they've thought about this; it's indeed a strategy for calculating a product of two natural numbers. But that makes the marking off of a point all the more perplexing, because both repeated addition schemes are equally valid strategies for computing the same product, by virtue of the commutative property of multiplication! Which is indeed generally an axiom and not a derived theorem in the more general case of multiplication, because multiplication is not generally defined in terms of repeated addition. In general, the axioms only say that multiplication distributes over addition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_(mathematics)

My kids are actually going through this phase of their curriculum right now, and I know that here, at least, they do teach the commutative property of multiplication fairly quickly after multiplication is introduced. So I'm not really sure what pedagogical point of the grading of this assignment would be, but perhaps there is some point to it. Fortunately my kids have not run afoul of this kind of thing.

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm afraid you've not given a complete definition of multiplication. You need to also show that multiplication is commutative, which is indeed a property of multiplication but MUST be included in the definition. At the child's level (primary age child, NOT high-school) then it is unnecessary to introduce the distributive property. But you honestly have to make the associative property very, very clear of the chil…

Well, maybe you can find a source, but I can only find sources that define multiplication as I have and then mention that multiplication of, say, real numbers, is commutative.

I'd just like to add a point to jasode's excellent point about getting hung up about orthography, which is that please don't define math using English. It's a terrible thing to do -- for example, the en-us 5x3 = 5 times 3 = 3+3+3+3+3 fails for Spanish speakers. For another, English itself is not very "standard" - some variants of British English would actually read 5x3 as "5, 3 times". Math exists outside of human language and teaching kids should adapt to this reality.

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#146
Here's my response to this:

https://medium.com/@highsource/the-only-reason-for-this-answ...

The only reason for this answer to be marked as “wrong” is the teacher saying “You did not apply the strategy I’ve tought EXACTLY as I tought it. You have dared to understand the idea and acted on your understanding INSTEAD OF mechanically applying the actions I told you to.”

Most of your argument does not have a stand.

You’re quoting “the definition of multiplication” which says “adding as many copies of one of them as the value of another one” and use this as basis to argument that 3+3+3+3+3 would have been correct and 5+5+5 is wrong. But even this definition does not say “the first one” and “the second one”. It says “one of them” and “another one”. So 3+3+3+3+3 is just as correct as 5+5+5. Period.

You’re quiting definitions of equal “being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value” and “ equivalent” as “equal in value, amount, function, or meaning”. First point here: the task said nothing about “equivalence”. It just said “solve 5x3”, applying the repetitive addition strategy. So it absolutely does not matter if 5+5+5 is equivalent to 3+3+3+3+3 or not.

Next point, you say that 5+5+5 is equal to 3+3+3+3+3 but not equivalent. If you explicitly add some trivia like banana bundles then you can somehow argument that there is some difference in amount, function or meaning. But only if you explicitly add these details. In the original task, there are no such details so there is no way you can show difference in amount, function or meaning.

I agree that using a commutative property before it was itroduced would have been wrong. But the child here did not use the commutative property! Absolutely not. The child applied the repetitive addition strategy, just (obviously) not at the EXACT convention that the teacher taught. This has nothing to do with multiplication being commutative at this point.

The whole point of this answer being wrong is for the teacher to enforce application of the taught rules or strategies EXACTLY how they are taught. There is no sensible reason for the repetitive addition strategy to be applied as 5+5+5 instead of 3+3+3+3+3. Only the convention and “do as I said”.

Whether “do as I taught” is a good thing or a bad thing really depends. For some children it is really important that they follow the teacher mechanically, repeating exactly what they were told. This way they are at least guaranteed to manage the basic mechanical tasks. So the teacher is more or less guaranteed to have some borderline success with them.

But many children understand things on a much deeper level from the very beginning. They understand the sense and the reason and the logic of math much deeper than the basic mechanics. And once they understand the internals like the absolut truth of 5+5+5 and 3+3+3+3+3 giving the same result, it becomes illogical that one answer is right and the other one is wrong due to “you have not done this EXACTLY as I have tought you”. You see, math is the absolute truth, so if your conventions and enforcements contradict that, these conventions and enforcements are simply wrong. Yes, maybe you first have to do “wrong” for the better good later on, but don’t pretend you’re right.

Finally, you bring the point of “Respect the teachers” because they are “ they are qualified experts on child education”.

Oh, my, I don’t even know where to begin.

There are really different kinds of teachers, some doing great jobs and some, well, not-so-great. Of course you have to respect them as you would respect any other human being.

But this does not mean that teachers or teaching programs are infallible. Respect does not mean they are always right, because, you know, “they are qualified experts” and that they can’t be criticized.

I had around 12 or 15 different math classes in the university and really different kinds of professors. Most of them respected the thinking and understanding above all. They did not care if I did a proof exactly as they taught it— or came up with something original (which was, admittedly, mostly, because I skipped the lection). But there were also some which insisted on exactly the same proofs and even notations as they once wrote on the whiteboard. Reasoning: it was harder for them to check the correctness of the proof if it was not in their exact notation! Should I have respected this? I did not and I have brought a few cases to the higher university commissions and had all of the wrongful evaluations dismissed.

You point to the dangers of children later on not understanding matrix operations or “equals” vs. == vs. ===. For me much more dangerous is teaching mechanics and punishing for misunderstanding. I have never ever saw a student or a programmer who had troubles with matrix operations, vector multiplication, or === in JavaScript because of they’ve grasped the commutative property of multiplication for numbers too early.

But I have seen a lot of people thinking and working mechanically with once-learned mindsets which they are afraid or uncabale of leaving. I am afraid, this is exactly the mindset which is enforced by “5+5+5 is wrong because this is not how I taught it”.

Let me tell you this. If my kid would have brought this from school, I’d explain him that 3+3+3+3+3 is just as valid as 5+5+5. But I would have also point out that sometimes it’s not just math that you learn in the math lesson. That you also learn social skills — like that the teacher expects you to be conformant to his or her rules. You have to be able to recognize this in this person. You have to be not just clever enough to understand that 5+5+5 is the right answer. You have to be clever enough to see that there is the other correct answer, 3+3+3+3+3, and that the teacher probably expects that one instead.

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#147
post #56

I am surprised to see exclusively negative reactions here. For one, the question wasn't marked wrong so much as partially incorrect (and partially correct). Secondly, the question is not "What is 5x3?" and the test is not about multiplication. It's explicitly about a specific process, which the teacher has presumably taught and which the student unequivocally got wrong. If you were asked in the wood shop to make a dr…

The task was about repetitive multiplication strategy. Which was what the child did. Just not by the EXACTLY taught convention.

So your analogy with dovetail joins would be not replacing them by rabbet joins, but setting them just in the different order. And it would have been a complete nonsense to ask for a specific order in a wood shop.

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is that because the 5 is first, as everyone can see, it has a specific job in the repeated addition technique. Um, this is sophistry. The question asked for "5 x 3" using repeated addition. The x is a very well defined mathematical operator and "repeated addition" has a very well-defined meaning, and the child has demonstrated it by repeatedly adding 5 three times. Yes, the child's cardinal sin is he Did…

It doesn't seem like a cardinal sin so much as a small quantitative note that the process was taught a different way that the teacher thinks is important. Let's suppose one student can follow the procedure when asked but can't actually multiply in application, one student can't follow the procedure correctly but can multiply when needed, and a third can do both. Probably the first student will get questions on this q…

a x b = b + ... +b is not a strict definition, it's just a convention.

Check the English Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication

It's, as you say, 5x3 = 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 +3.

But now check Russian Wikipedia:

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B6...

There you'll see 5x3 = 5 + 5 + 5.

So much for the "very well-defined mathematical meaning".

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm afraid you've not given a complete definition of multiplication. You need to also show that multiplication is commutative, which is indeed a property of multiplication but MUST be included in the definition. At the child's level (primary age child, NOT high-school) then it is unnecessary to introduce the distributive property. But you honestly have to make the associative property very, very clear of the chil…

I'm pretty sure that the homework was given as part of a course teaching multiplication. Perhaps what was desired was to first have children able to construct products from repeated addition, before teaching them the commutative property?

But 5 + 5 + 5 WAS repeated addition!

Re: Why 5 x 3 = 5 and 5 and 5 Was Marked Wrong

#150

Multiplication is commutative. I don't care if you can rewrite the definition on wikipedia, this is a fundamental truth of math. Far more important than your semantic nonsense.

It actually even did not matter here if multiplication is commutative or not. The child had to apply the repetitive addition strategy and so he or she did. Just probably not with the taught convention.
Post reply on HN