This Industry is Fucked • Hacker News Board

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#131

Post by obstacle1 » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 2:37 AM UTC

rodgerd wrote: post #74

obstacle1 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're being a bit overbroad in speaking for all women (that's the kind of thinking which leads to sexism in the first place). Frankly the 'consequences' here are receiving a bunch of unsavoury PMs. i.e., there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences. So the fear of contributing to a community because of it is unfounded. It's just a side-effect of Internet culture, and it happens to men too.

> there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences Tell that to Val Adams or other women who have been sexually assaulted at tech conferences. > and it happens to men too My mistake. I thought you were serious, not that redpill was leaking.

>Val Adams

I don't know who you're talking about and curiously neither does Google. This comment appears to be the only mention of 'Val Adams' to ever appear on HN.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're above making up names in hopes that nobody will check your references. Could you provide a link detailing whatever incident you're talking about involving Val Adams?

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#132

Post by Gigablah » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 2:42 AM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #114

jazzyk wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do not bring the Adria story again - she made a fuss because of an adolescent joke she overheard two rows behind her in a private conversation, which was NOT DIRECTED AT HER, and was not about females or sexual or any other interaction with females. All the same while making crass jokes herself in her social media accounts. As opposed to this case, where some sickos clearly send very troubling messages DIRECTL…

Aaaaand, our two divergent reactions to the Adria Richards story is probably why these friends of mine (the female programmers) probably felt like they could trust me with the stories of their experiences; e.g. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong, I'm not going to try and reinterpret their stories...I'm just going to listen.

What's there to be smug about? People will naturally confide in individuals who don't challenge their stories. It's basic empathy.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#133

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 2:50 AM UTC

astrocyte wrote: post #53

Kapura wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not common?" Really? This SEEMS pretty common. And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing. You say you're tired of this shit. How do you think these women feel? It's not you writing the tweets and emails, but if you beco…

This isn't pretty common nor are any of the off the wall comments and threats she's getting serious. It's called trolling. Have you been on the internet in the last decade? If you're dumb enough to let someone get under your skin, they will and will do so even more. I'm a minority. Do you know the kind of shit I've had to deal w/ in tech. Note the 'deal with'. Were supposedly in a society where women are demanding to…

[deleted]

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#134

Post by johnny22 » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 2:50 AM UTC

astrocyte wrote: post #122

slater wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahaha yeah, couldn't be that people are downvoting you for legitimate reasons, no sirree! Can only be white-knighting!

Engage in commentary then instead of anonymously pulling out your whiteknight sword because I'm not towing the comfort line you're accustomed to. You feel something was wrong in my commentary, hash it out with me. I'll respond and hopefully a higher truth is arrived at. My main thread went from 11 upvotes to -3 in a matter of seconds because I 'kept it real'. Only with one person having the decency to engage me. That…

people think your "keeping it real" is total BS, thus the downvotes.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#135

Post by wismer » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 2:54 AM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #127

shoeluckpotland wrote: post #104

I have a small theory about harassment in tech. Posting from a throwaway, as I have been threatened myself. I know many women in technology. Some have experienced some truly vile online harassment. Almost all of which is conducted online, anonymously. Not in-person. Instead, it is rape threats via email. Tweets from pseudo-anonymous accounts. Almost never something that can be attached to a real person. I do not doub…

That's some fucked up gas-lighting dude. Kathy Sierra explicitly called out one of her harassers weev and his posse (def not what you'd call a "Social Justice Warrior", and weev initially copped to harassing her and has been trying to deny it subsequently). Places like 4Chan and KotakuInAction are not some fucked up false flag operation simply by virtue of the vast number of man hours involved. And even ignoring all…

spot on.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#136

Post by throwawayderp1 » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 2:56 AM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #127

shoeluckpotland wrote: post #104

I have a small theory about harassment in tech. Posting from a throwaway, as I have been threatened myself. I know many women in technology. Some have experienced some truly vile online harassment. Almost all of which is conducted online, anonymously. Not in-person. Instead, it is rape threats via email. Tweets from pseudo-anonymous accounts. Almost never something that can be attached to a real person. I do not doub…

That's some fucked up gas-lighting dude. Kathy Sierra explicitly called out one of her harassers weev and his posse (def not what you'd call a "Social Justice Warrior", and weev initially copped to harassing her and has been trying to deny it subsequently). Places like 4Chan and KotakuInAction are not some fucked up false flag operation simply by virtue of the vast number of man hours involved. And even ignoring all…

Respectfully, I think your rhetoric doesn't help the situation. It's not "gas-lighting" to be skeptical of the prevailing narrative that tech is a misogynistic boys club. The thing is, the harassment that Jessie is facing could literally be one person, right? Do you deny that?

Absolutely no one suggested "was okay in any way shape or form", but the fact that you used all caps really drove the point home for everyone who wasn't sure.

It's like, you get shamed if you even suggest that this might possibly be attributed to something other than "misogyny in tech".

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#137

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 3:00 AM UTC

generic_user wrote: post #115

alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

>Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgusted and threatened. That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem. There is not one "person in this industry" that was named or identified here. To project that anonymous internet…

This is a strongly gendered phenomenon. Prominent women in tech have an entirely different experience than prominent men in tech. (This is mostly true for non-prominent people as well.) This comes up over and over and over.

But by all means keep clouding the issue in hopes of not having to talk about it.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#138

Post by SmokyBourbon » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 3:01 AM UTC

nmrm2 wrote: post #49

obstacle1 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're being a bit overbroad in speaking for all women (that's the kind of thinking which leads to sexism in the first place). Frankly the 'consequences' here are receiving a bunch of unsavoury PMs. i.e., there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences. So the fear of contributing to a community because of it is unfounded. It's just a side-effect of Internet culture, and it happens to men too.

The author received private messages saying that someone jerked off to a picture of her at a conference and also photoshopped pictures of her full of blood. Those sorts of messages -- even in isolation -- have real-world, often physical, consequences. This attitude that sexual harassment is only harmful if it's a physical assault needs to go back to the 1950's where it belongs.

> The author received private messages saying that someone jerked off to a picture of her

The author says she received these pictures. There's a difference.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#139

Post by shoeluckpotland » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 3:01 AM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #127

shoeluckpotland wrote: post #104

I have a small theory about harassment in tech. Posting from a throwaway, as I have been threatened myself. I know many women in technology. Some have experienced some truly vile online harassment. Almost all of which is conducted online, anonymously. Not in-person. Instead, it is rape threats via email. Tweets from pseudo-anonymous accounts. Almost never something that can be attached to a real person. I do not doub…

That's some fucked up gas-lighting dude. Kathy Sierra explicitly called out one of her harassers weev and his posse (def not what you'd call a "Social Justice Warrior", and weev initially copped to harassing her and has been trying to deny it subsequently). Places like 4Chan and KotakuInAction are not some fucked up false flag operation simply by virtue of the vast number of man hours involved. And even ignoring all…

Harassment is not okay. Never said it was. Nobody thinks it is.

But "calling someone out" means nothing. Tim Hunt was "called out", and mobbed out of his career on the basis of personal accusation alone, with zero actual wrongdoing.

Mob violence is bad, no matter who does it.

I asked for thoughts, because I want so see the evidence that contradicts this theory. Please, please, PLEASE show me some evidence that I am wrong.

I want to be wrong, because being right about this is scary as fuck.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#140

Post by __z » Mon, Jul 06, 2015, 3:03 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #98

alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

> Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." I'm tired of people whining in a blog post instead of calling the police. Death threats and violence threats like this are unacceptable. CALL THE POLICE. After a couple of high-profile case…

What makes you think she didn't call the police?

http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome...

"Two hours later, a Palm Springs police officer lumbered up the steps to my hotel room, paused on the outdoor threshold, and began questioning me in a steady clip. I wheeled through the relevant background information: I am a journalist; I live in Los Angeles; sometimes, people don’t like what I write about women, relationships, or sexuality; this was not the first time that someone had responded to my work by threatening to rape and kill me. The cop anchored his hands on his belt, looked me in the eye, and said, “What is Twitter?”"