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Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

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Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#131

Post by mgkimsal »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #99
contergan wrote: post #85

I fully agree. I currently work for a startup and after we moved into a new office last month our management had the glorious idea of putting the programmers next to the customer support team in an open office :/ It's horrible - I have to endure the customer support calls the whole day long and can't find even 5 min. in silence, in order to concentrate on the programming tasks I'm supposed to do. I tried putting on h…

Have you at least provided feedback to the managers? Like cold, hard feedback "I cannot work like this, I and my colleagues are going to quit and you're fucked when we do" kinda feedback.

No one ever does this, unfortunately. Getting a group to band together and threaten collective action is something few people even consider - most people I know are scared of entertaining that idea.

Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#132

Post by rlonstein »

contergan wrote: post #85

I fully agree. I currently work for a startup and after we moved into a new office last month our management had the glorious idea of putting the programmers next to the customer support team in an open office :/ It's horrible - I have to endure the customer support calls the whole day long and can't find even 5 min. in silence, in order to concentrate on the programming tasks I'm supposed to do. I tried putting on h…

    > I fully agree. I currently work for a startup and after we moved into 
    > a new office last month our management had the glorious idea of 
    > putting the programmers next to the customer support team in an open office :/
I'm a CTO and we moved to new offices a couple of months ago. There were glass-topped, full-height cubes in the center of the floor with natural light on one and a half sides. Not perfect but better than a bullpen. I explicitly asked and emailed the rest of management that we not alter the cubes. The developers prefer to huddle or break off into conf rooms and need the option of getting heads down. The result, the COO had the cubes trimmed to waist height for a open floor effect.

It's damn difficult to get non-IT people to change their POV.

Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#133

Post by CHY872 »

calinet6 wrote: post #123
CHY872 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If two things correlate, it doesn't mean that there's a causal link between them; it means that there's a third thing that causes both of them. Those companies who pioneered the open office plans also do a lot of other things that set themselves apart from other companies. It doesn't necessarily mean anything important. For all you know, the open plan office could be a failed attempt to optimise their workforce.

For all you know, it could be a successful attempt. It's extremely difficult to determine causality in a highly complex system such as a company. That's the point, and that's why I posed the question.

Then your argument degenerates. What you've said isn't factually incorrect, but it's boring; you've picked a property that no one can possibly prove or disprove (but that is obviously not true) and used that as an argument against the analytical method in general.

It's boring for two reasons; firstly because it doesn't allow you to make any decision at all based off it - it's the intellectual equivalent of sticking your head in the sand. Secondly, it's not a fact you need to know in order to judge success; there are many proxies for 'better/worse' which can be tested and quantified. These are widely used by big companies in order to optimise their workforces.

The reason that it's not really done in tech is simply because they're so much smaller, and so the benefit of someone spending the time on devising and performing such tests is lower.

Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#134

Post by mkopinsky »

mgkimsal wrote: post #131
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you at least provided feedback to the managers? Like cold, hard feedback "I cannot work like this, I and my colleagues are going to quit and you're fucked when we do" kinda feedback.

No one ever does this, unfortunately. Getting a group to band together and threaten collective action is something few people even consider - most people I know are scared of entertaining that idea.

It's not about making a collective threat, it's letting management know that the new conditions are making you consider options "up to and including departure", and that you think the other devs may be in the same boat.

Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#135

Post by juliangregorian »

wahsd wrote: post #118
jguimont wrote: post #82

SAP star building in Germany headquarters are a good example of what to do with office spaces: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gOgdHlT33Jo/TQ7zXFqaxjI/AAAAAAAAAJ... http://www.mz-web.de/image/view/2012/4/23/17117282,16301136,... http://www.donfeidner.de/assets/images/P1000400_SAP_Star_Bui... The wings have offices which can sit 6 to 8 people and at the center there are the meeting rooms, restrooms and lunch area.

Group spaces are quite prevalent in Germany from what I can tell. It makes total sense, in Germany. There is a bit of a difference in the USA though, where employers think you get productivity out of surveillance. We are not a very deeply thinking society, so it makes sense on the face of it that if you can see people working they are being productive. What we miss though, is that all the surveillance and lack of pro…

Because it's coded in Paul Graham's vanity language that only a dozen people know?

Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#136

Post by snx »

mkopinsky wrote: post #134
mgkimsal wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one ever does this, unfortunately. Getting a group to band together and threaten collective action is something few people even consider - most people I know are scared of entertaining that idea.

It's not about making a collective threat, it's letting management know that the new conditions are making you consider options "up to and including departure", and that you think the other devs may be in the same boat.

Just make sure you don't talk for other people (for example naming your peers). Otherwise i strongly agree.

Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#137

Post by calinet6 »

CHY872 wrote: post #133
calinet6 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all you know, it could be a successful attempt. It's extremely difficult to determine causality in a highly complex system such as a company. That's the point, and that's why I posed the question.

Then your argument degenerates. What you've said isn't factually incorrect, but it's boring; you've picked a property that no one can possibly prove or disprove (but that is obviously not true) and used that as an argument against the analytical method in general. It's boring for two reasons; firstly because it doesn't allow you to make any decision at all based off it - it's the intellectual equivalent of sticking y…

That's the entire point: no one can possibly prove or disprove that open office plans are a significant contributing factor to company success, or if they're just correlated, or if they're entirely irrelevant.

Yet the popular story here is that they're highly detrimental and have a causal relationship with low productivity. That might be true for individuals, but we have no evidence (as far as I know) that it's true at an organizational level. The benefits to the company from a systems perspective could far outweigh the difference in individual productivity. We don't know, yet people act as though that systems view is not relevant.

I'm not making an argument, anyway, I'm pointing out a hole in the analysis: there are factors that are possibly involved that are more difficult to quantify that everyone seems to be alright with just ignoring. My hunch is that the lack of quantifiability of the cultural, social, and human factors resulting from office plans makes them a blind spot for people with more logical/analytical perspectives, like yourself. I fail to see how that's boring or irrelevant.

Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#138

Post by hvidgaard »

rlonstein wrote: post #132
contergan wrote: post #85

I fully agree. I currently work for a startup and after we moved into a new office last month our management had the glorious idea of putting the programmers next to the customer support team in an open office :/ It's horrible - I have to endure the customer support calls the whole day long and can't find even 5 min. in silence, in order to concentrate on the programming tasks I'm supposed to do. I tried putting on h…

> I fully agree. I currently work for a startup and after we moved into > a new office last month our management had the glorious idea of > putting the programmers next to the customer support team in an open office :/ I'm a CTO and we moved to new offices a couple of months ago. There were glass-topped, full-height cubes in the center of the floor with natural light on one and a half sides. Not perfect but better th…

If a COO does not listen to what the CTO say is important for productivity, you have bigger problems than non-IT people not understanding you.

Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#139

Post by mkcny »

ronnier wrote: post #4

I truly dislike open offices. The constant sound of mechanical keyboards clacking really gets to me, and I'm not sure why. I wear headphones listening to loud music to cancel out the sounds of these damn keyboards.

Am I the only one that experiences anxiety when imposing sensory deprivation on myself in a crowded environment?

When headphones are effective at masking background noise, people sometimes tap me on the shoulder or knock on my desk. It can be really jarring if you're lost in thought and not aware of your surroundings. Interruptions are normally costly, but being surprised like that makes it so much harder to regain focus afterward.

Re: Google got it wrong. The open-office trend is destroying the workplace

#140

Post by JoeAltmaier »

calinet6 wrote: post #117
nilkn wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying, but I think there's an easy solution: just ask people who've experienced both. That way you're not experiencing the classic but very real problem of people not knowing what they want until they've got it. At my workplace, for instance, not once in the history of the company has anyone with an office ever given it up, under any circumstances, to move into a cubicle again. Likewise, someone wi…

That was my point. There are a lot of things that we measure (eg: productivity) when we should actually be looking at larger goals. In this case, an open office creates a certain type of culture and work environment. That might be desirable for the company as a whole, even if it's suboptimal for some individuals, and even if certain measurements at a low level are against it.

I buy that, for some companies. As a developer, I can tell you that my productivity is shot/reduced 90% by a noisy open environment. So I always find a company that needs my skills, and houses me appropriately to capitalize on those skills. If I'm a low-level measurement that the company can do without, so they put me in open plan anyway, I'll leave.
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