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Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

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Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#131

Post by rayiner »

CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

The drug war is a symptom of something more basic: Americans lack compassion. Consider something in the non-drug context: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/02/georgia-probatio.... You can bring up private prisons and probation companies, but the fact is that these laws have been on the books all along. They were passed by part-time state legislators, who are pretty representative of ordinary people in the state.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#132

Post by millermp12 »

CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

There's no drug war in the Congo, or Nigeria, Liberia, or Ethiopia. These are places, though, that most people, if they had their druthers, prefer to leave.

So of course, end the drug war. But the elephant in the room doesn't go away if you ignore it harder.

Eppur si muove.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#133

Post by millermp12 »

smtddr wrote: post #126
ams6110 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

>>But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. I'd say that institutionalize/systemic racism in America makes it exceedingly more likely that a minority will end up poor and exceedingly more difficult to get out of ---> poor neighborhoods --> more crime ---> broken window policy ---> problems we've been seeing recently. Conver…

Can we dispense with "minority" and "people of color" when we're talking really about blacks and to a lesser extent hispanics?

This kind of intellectual forgery is why the left (and it's prescriptions) are increasingly viewed with suspicion. Bring yourself to be honest with your words and assessments. Make sure what you say passes the smell test. Otherwise you're just preaching to the converted.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#134

Post by millermp12 »

moomin wrote: post #129
ctdonath wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many consider inequality a symptom/consequence of one's own chosen behavior, not a cause. (ETA "chosen behavior" clause.)

Indeed, the City of Ferguson's finances relied on the regular fining of its poorest citizens. Basically backdoor taxation.

Not unlike the lottery, which the poor regularly spent their meager pittance on. Taxation of the poor as Lincoln noted.

So can be ban lotteries (and casinos, too) unless participants demonstrate they can afford the losses?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#135

Post by sbov »

ams6110 wrote: post #114
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

The problem isn't that we're throwing them in jail for no reason. The problem is we aren't throwing non-poor non-minorities in jail for the same reasons.

Most friends of mine regularly do drugs. Even the self made multi millionaires. None of them have been to jail. They aren't subject to the random ass searches like the poor are.

If things were different - if the millionaires were treated with the same suspect, you bet your ass these laws would change.

But they aren't. So the laws stay the same. And that's a problem.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#136

Post by fromtheoutside »

ams6110 wrote: post #114
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

>> I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and throwing them in jail.

That's actually not how the Gestapo worked. They were very bureaucratic and followed protocol. Their most misused power, according to Wikipedia, was the "protective custody".

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#137

Post by millermp12 »

ChrisArgyle wrote: post #69
Bostonian wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black men also commit violent crimes at much higher rates than the rest of the population. Most people are in jail for a good reason. I suggest reading a recent essay "The Smart Way to Keep People Out of Prison" by Megan McArdle.

It seems as if you're saying violent crime is a function of race (crazy talk) instead of class status (arguable). Is it possible that, due to race-income inequalities in America, that black males are also more likely to have low/no income at the same "much higher rate"?

1) men commit violent crime at much higher rates than women. Why? 2) sexism? stupidity? Or perhaps "being male" (higher testosterone levels) 3) males who self-identify as black have about 15% more testoterone (courtesy of that racist institution, the National Institutes of Health)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741

4) is is really so crazy that a population with higher testosterone levels tends to be be bigger, and when they indulgent a violent proclivity, the outcome is more severe than when, say, a japanese women gets upset at the flower shop?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#138

Post by Steuard »

ams6110 wrote: post #114
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

I'll agree that the drug war is out of control and as a "cure" it's worse than the disease. But people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor. They are committing crimes, and pleading or being found guilty. The problem I have with pieces like the original article are that they are making it sound like we are engaging in a Gestapo-like rounding up of large numbers of minorities for no reason and…

> people are not being locked up just because they are black, or poor

I just said this elsewhere, but I knew many people in college who used illegal drugs, and none of them were ever locked up (or even searched). When we have a set of laws and we choose to enforce them on some communities but not on others, then we are in fact locking people up just because they are black or poor.

Others have already pointed out that high incarceration and felony rates (in part due to the drug war) have contributed a whole lot to the social patterns that you mention here. I'll agree with you on one thing, though: our social programs today are in a particularly ineffective state with some messed-up incentive structures and still not enough resources to actually solve the problem. I'd much prefer something like a universal basic income to the complicated, market distorting system we have today. (But I still think that getting rid of these programs would be far worse than what we have now, even if the incentive structure would be more straightforward.)

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#139

Post by at-fates-hands »

thucydides wrote: post #98
mellavora wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ummm, no. IF this was true, we would see a correlation between gun ownership (or access) and murder rates. If anything, the correlation is slightly negative, both in the US and globally. Where you DO see the correlation is inequality. In US states, using data from wikipedia, I find a 70% correlation between gini coefficients and homicide rates. The same is true globally.

There is a correlation between gun access and homicide rates. "Across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded." http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and...

>> There is a correlation between gun access and homicide rates.

There is a correlation, albeit a negative one:

http://www.theacru.org/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterp...

The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: “Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.”

The findings of two criminologists – Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser – in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland’s murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#140

Post by merpnderp »

bilbo0s wrote: post #118
Bostonian wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black men also commit violent crimes at much higher rates than the rest of the population. Most people are in jail for a good reason. I suggest reading a recent essay "The Smart Way to Keep People Out of Prison" by Megan McArdle.

I don't know man... I looked at the numbers. It seems like the violent crime thing is being somewhat overstated here. For example, murder. So... even if we assume that black males committed EVERY murder in the US last year. (I realize they didn't, but I wanted to look at the numbers in a fashion as favorable to your view as possible.) Anyway, even if we assume they committed EVERY murder... that would still only be l…

I don't know if it is correct and I certainly think it is a horrible positive feedback loop, but it appears that people with prior convictions are much more likely to get convicted and do jail time. So if you get in trouble as a kid, you're much more likely to get the book thrown at you for minor offenses as an adult.
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