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Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

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Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#131
post #119
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The right to privacy, while not spelled out explicitly in the Constitution, is recognized by the Supreme Court and the basis of most modern boundaries on what government can and cannot do with regard to surveillance without a warrant. New technology that makes it possible to observe "public" behavior in ways that were previously impossible is still subject to the right to privacy, and courts may well rule…

> The right to privacy, while not spelled out explicitly in the Constitution, is recognized by the Supreme Court The Supreme Court decision you speak of also makes very clear in its ruling that there is, legally speaking, no such thing as a "general right to privacy". It simply doesn't exist in U.S. jurisprudence. There can be a "reasonable expectation of privacy" in many situations, but that's not quite the same thi…

Those helicopters pursuing O.J. were private helicopters, not subject to jurisdictional restrictions or limitations on their interactions with general citizens. Police Departments have explicit charters that state their purpose and scope. Likely to your chagrin, the words "surveillance" and "intelligence" do not appear in the Baltimore PD's charter. (See below [1]) Furthermore, using airplanes, helicopters, cameras and radio control to pursue someone (note, my specific use of someone) that the police have good reason to believe committed a crime is perfectly fine, and that is the context of the legal doctrines you reference. Do you actually think that the police have articuable suspicion that everyone whose video/cell phone information is being recorded by these surveillance planes has committed a crime? That's to say nothing of the jurisdictional overreach (if not in letter of the law, then in spirit of the law) in asking the FBI to come in and use these toys of war on local citizens who have not committed any federal offenses. The Baltimore PD charter repeatedly makes reference to the "boundaries of the city."

Lastly, you'll notice that the most recent developments in GPS tracking state that warrants are required to use GPS trackers even when police have reasonable suspicion. [2] Since the ostensible reasons for using these drones are to track the movements of individuals, and Stingray devices essentially have that as their sole feature, do you really think it's justified to (quite possibly illegally) track all of these "innocent until proven guilty" citizens using aerial drones? We aren't just talking about a few people who stole a car or are fleeing the scene of a murder. This is wholesale tracking of everyone on the streets -- and possibly in their homes if cell signals are being monitored -- in a 10 mile radius of Inner Harbor.

[1] http://archive.baltimorecity.gov/Portals/0/Charter%20and%20C...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Jones_(2012)#...

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#132
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about my backyard? What about the roof of my house? My neighbors can't see all of that area due to one reason or another (fences, trees, lack of windows on their house, etc. etc.) As many others have already noted, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Well, this case en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_v._Riley pertains to your question. Some of the dissenting opinions raise the same questions you do, but there's a reason I had to call them 'dissenting opinions'.

If indeed these drones are using Dirtboxes and are indiscriminately tracking people based on cell phone signatures, then I would posit that the combination of [1] and [2], and ongoing issues like [3], make what law enforcement is doing Baltimore disgustingly illegal and oppressive. Targeted and specific aerial imagery and inspection is a totally different ballpark than what these drones are doing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Jones_(2012)#...

[3] http://motherboard.vice.com/read/court-limits-police-stingra...

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#133
post #115
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem a lot of people have is with the "mass" part, not the "surveillance" part, of mass-surveillance.

Mass surveillance of the type where a warrant would be required individually is problematic. Flying in public airspace taking video of public locations is just another GoPro ad though. Except, apparently, when it's the police taking the video (though in fairness, the Supreme Court has restricted what police can look at and what sensors police can use, even from public airspace). But, I've got a good solution: Strap t…

I don't see how you can argue you with a straight (or smug, in your case) face that body cameras are the same as unfiltered, mass, indiscriminate and wholesale video recording of an entire metro area. Body cameras are subject to the visual field of the individual police officer. Body cameras are not wide-lens, 360-degree panoramic, 1080p-4k for each 15-30-60 degree sub-field, that can identify hundreds of people in a given frame. If a police officer's body camera has you in focus, then I would say it is reasonable to assume that they are using their discretion in choosing to interact with you. The same cannot be said for aerial surveillance of the sort in the OP.

(Cue an argument stating that, "Well, the operator of the drone is using their discretion!" Can the operator of the drone put forth a reasonable suspicion for all that they are recording information on?)

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#134
post #14

If you're big into crowd-sourcing: There are super-inexpensive RTL-SDR dongles[1] that can be used to track airplanes such as this. I'm not a lawyer, but I've fooled around with these dongles and a few programs enough to discern that Gov't aircraft absolutely need to broadcast their info on the 1090MHz band. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to have a few people pop these up and see if they could monitor the airplanes…

I have two of those dongles (there were abouto $10 each) and living by the airport don't even need a particularly good antena do dump ADS-B messages out to the console.

Just on a whim, I stuck the little 6" whip antenna on the trunk of my car and plopped my laptop next to it, just to see what I'd get.

I was able to pick up flights taking off from DC, quite a good trip away. 100 miles?

Pretty awesome.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#135
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the hypothetical situation where these drones were taking recorded video of publicly accessible areas of Baltimore ("the streets", so to speak), would you have a problem with that?

I would have a problem with that, as I still think that the PD should be required to have articuable suspicion to collect information on any and all who may be caught on camera. It's inevitable that some people caught on video camera will not be "potentially" committing a crime. Video cameras might be easier for the legal weasels to defend than the Stingrays (radio waves don't care about walls, and "oh, those people…

I bet you find speeding cameras, the ones that only turn on if you're actively breaking a law in front of them, detestable too, don't you?

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#136
post #73

I believe this must be the case but who has the resources to deploy something like this? Does Palantir or some other contractor help mine captured images for data? What is done with this data? There is no way BCPD has the resources for this, does the FBI come in and feed them info? for what, arresting rioters?

It's probably to detect a mutation from protest to violence and likely looking for heat sources (fires). I'd certainly hope that in the event protests turn into rioting and fires are lit someone is ready to send in the FD. A destroyed neighborhood does not help the locals and only inconveniences them. Large destruction would serve to disincentivize investment in a community which needs all the investment it can get.…

This is interesting. I was playing volleyball yesterday in the inner harbor (there is a small volleyball beach between Federal Hill and the water). The fire department set up a bon fire right next to us and at some point a helicopter started doing circles around us, I assume because it spotted a fire. The helicopter is definitely different than the plane that has been flying around though, maybe the plane triggered the helicopter or maybe they have as many eyes in the sky as they can get.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#137
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are limits to jurisdiction, well defined. For example, police cannot enter your home without your permission, unless they have a warrant from a judge. So if the airplane surveillance is being used to collect and act on data that would normally require a warrant, then "jurisdiction" is not sufficient. Even having the ability to do this is problematic in the eyes of many judges and many civilians (it would be the…

> So if the airplane surveillance is being used to collect and act on data that would normally require a warrant, then "jurisdiction" is not sufficient. Very true, I agree. However, I don't see any reason why this would be taking place given what we currently know. Arial surveillance has the distinct advantage of safely observing a public area under their jurisdiction. So yes, they shouldn't avoid warrants by way of…

My concern isn't aerial monitoring of large crowds. It's picking out individuals from within those crowds and data-mining their activities before they joined the crowd. That's two removes away from the original idea of aerial surveillance. The ACLU is right to be concerned about it.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#138
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have a problem with that, as I still think that the PD should be required to have articuable suspicion to collect information on any and all who may be caught on camera. It's inevitable that some people caught on video camera will not be "potentially" committing a crime. Video cameras might be easier for the legal weasels to defend than the Stingrays (radio waves don't care about walls, and "oh, those people…

I bet you find speeding cameras, the ones that only turn on if you're actively breaking a law in front of them, detestable too, don't you?

Instead of smarmily moving the goal posts with these decreasingly relevant questions, why not add some of your own opinions or retorts to the points I've been trying to make?

I don't find speeding cameras detestable, if indeed they are activated by staggered induction/magnetic sensors and are not simply 24/7 video recording cameras.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#139
post #75
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since, for whatever reason, I enjoy tracking flights as a hobby, here's a couple of extra tidbits: 1) If you are in the right area, Flight Radar 24 might actually give you the equipment for free. See here: http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment for info. 2) It is unlikely that even aircraft that the government desires to be secret will stop broadcasting ADS-B anytime soon, as one of the major usages is avo…

I know absolutely nothing about this so forgive me if I'm asking a dumb question. ADS-B broadcasts so that other planes can figure out where you are and avoid you, correct? Why can't spy planes stop broadcasting it, but then listen for other planes' ADS-B signals, and just make sure to stay away from them? That way the only crash might be between two different spy planes?

ADS-B isn't so much that it keeps 'your' plane from colliding with another one.

It's used to keep other planes away from you.

If there's an ADS-B broadcast for a specific location, then the autopilot on all other airplanes will automatically avoid that location.

Re: Mysterious Planes Over Baltimore Spark Surveillance Suspicions

#140
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of people that support mass surveillance, they are just in the minority and unlikely to speak up about it in a place like HN. I'm torn between the two positions. I really like the libertarian idea that the government's power should be limited and surveillance is scary and intrusive. On the other hand I think the technologies are really cool. When license plate readers first started coming out I read…

It would be moral and fair for them to use their practically-unlimited budget and power on slurping up public data — licence plate readers, regular cameras on planes (without the power to see into private domiciles), public twitter feeds, public facebook feeds — and fight crime based on that. There is no moral and fair reason for the government to secretly break their own laws, eavesdrop on private and privileged com…

Right. Thats the difference between Orwells London with cameras in every house, and modern London with cameras in public places.
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