I was an undercover Uber driver • Hacker News Board

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#131

Post by icebraining » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:17 AM UTC

yesbabyyes wrote: post #124

DigitalSea wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ouch. That hurts. You have taken such a small part of what I have said and used it to paint me as someone who is taking advantage of the fact that Uber offers cheaper fares than a taxi service. And then to add salt to injury, you throw in that last line. While I agree somewhat with your point, your comment was just plain rude. There are so many other ways you could have said what you wanted to say without launching a…

First off, I agree. It was rude and when I wrote it I was in a bad mood in general. I think the ensuing discussion is definitely worth my karma hit; I'm a little bit sorry that you had to receive that aggressiveness, but reading your response I have hope it's ok. What I felt when I read your post, and wrote my response, was not so much about you as about an attitude that I'm fed up with, which is basically "I can see…

But Uber isn't forcing their workers at gunpoint, and it wasn't them that created the situation where the workers have no other alternatives.

If people are forced to get a badly paid job at Uber because the alternative is worse, and you remove Uber, guess what happens to the people you're trying to help?

If we want to help the people using Uber, we need to give them access to a better alternative so that they can leave voluntarily - be it giving them land or whatever. I don't claim I have a good solution, but we shouldn't fall into the Politician's Fallacy¹.

¹ "We must do something, this is something, we must do this"

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#132

Post by hackuser » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:21 AM UTC

maceo wrote: post #58

Human labor is not a commodity. This was the common sense amongst all working people for most of the 20th century. Samuel Gompers, maybe the most conservative labor leader of his time, said "You cannot weigh the human soul on the same scales as piece of pork." And working people, along with the management class for the most part, understood this to be an undeniable truth. In fact, this piece of common sense was enshr…

This is one of the most valuable comments I've read in years; thank you.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#133

Post by icebraining » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:27 AM UTC

dethstar wrote: post #20

yesbabyyes wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How magnanimous of you, to award imaginary points instead of enough money to support somebody. I think Uber is great for a certain subset of people. While most people who frequent HN on six figure tech salaries would definitely struggle to live on an Uber salary Seriously? I guess it's good for you guys so you only have to spend half of what it costs. Oh, and for the Uber owners of course. A certain subset of people,…

You're being overly rude about this but I agree on the point you're trying to get across. Most of the taxis I've been in were also drove by people trying to support their family. They probably have a better salary and maybe even compensations. Uber is certainly not disruptor in the worker rights zone.

Taxi drivers got a terrible salary, with a huge amount of the income (as much as 45%, according to the Taxi Commission) going to the taxi companies which own the garages and medallions.

In many cases, they had to pay to work, by dropping $50-$100 on the start of the shift to lease the medallion, before even knowing they would get enough rides to pay for it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/02/opinion/new-york-s-taxi-dr...

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/09/nyregion/driving-a-taxi-di...

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#134

Post by icebraining » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:34 AM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #59

marincounty wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"FULL VEHICLE LIST "remember - UberBLACK and UberSUV vehicles MUST be black on black. Please note: all vehicles must be 2010 or newer. The TLC is no longer renewing diamonds for vehicles that are older than 2011, so if your diamond is up for renewal, the TLC will not allow you to continue driving a 2010 vehicle. If you don't have TLC plates yet, you must get a 2011 or newer vehicle, as the TLC requires black cars to…

> "remember - UberBLACK and UberSUV vehicles MUST be black > on black. Colour? If so, that's not true in practice in Bangkok. All the cars here seem to be Toyota Camry's (or SUVs), and I've had a fair number of white ones.

Are you sure that's UberBlack, not UberX?

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#135

Post by yesbabyyes » Thu, May 07, 2015, 6:45 AM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #131

yesbabyyes wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, I agree. It was rude and when I wrote it I was in a bad mood in general. I think the ensuing discussion is definitely worth my karma hit; I'm a little bit sorry that you had to receive that aggressiveness, but reading your response I have hope it's ok. What I felt when I read your post, and wrote my response, was not so much about you as about an attitude that I'm fed up with, which is basically "I can see…

But Uber isn't forcing their workers at gunpoint, and it wasn't them that created the situation where the workers have no other alternatives. If people are forced to get a badly paid job at Uber because the alternative is worse, and you remove Uber, guess what happens to the people you're trying to help? If we want to help the people using Uber, we need to give them access to a better alternative so that they can lea…

I'm not talking about removing Uber. I'm not, and I don't get the idea DigitalSea is, in a position to "remove Uber". I'm not talking about any overarching ideology or abstract reasoning. I'm not "trying to help" people, either. I mean, it is what it is, right? What I take issue with is the reasoning that you and I almost have a moral imperative to go with the cheapest option, even though we are intelligent and well-informed, and can see that it's just not working out.

I'm talking about individual choice.

I also don't agree with your language, by the way. Uber's drivers are not using Uber; Uber are using them.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#136

Post by danieltillett » Thu, May 07, 2015, 7:05 AM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #120

rhino369 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Taxi lobby" makes it sound like Uber is disrupting some megacorporate industry who control government in smokey back alleys. Taxi corps are small, many are essentially sole proprietorships. The drivers are essentially all running their own business, but the medallion owners tend not to be huge corporations. Medallions are required because cities regulate taxis prices and policies. Doing so distorts normal market for…

> Taxi corps are small, many are essentially sole proprietorships. The drivers are essentially all running their own business, but the medallion owners tend not to be huge corporations. Do you have a source for this? I'm only familiar with Chicago numbers, but a medallion costs $360,000[1] and the top 2% of medallion owners own FORTY ONE percent of the total[2]. 3/4 of medallions are owned by corporations who own mor…

In some markets there are medallions that are owned by individual owners and other that can be owned by corporations. Looking at NYC these are both still worth a lot, but they are falling in value thanks to uber and co [1].

1. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/upshot/new-york-city-taxi-...

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#137

Post by icebraining » Thu, May 07, 2015, 7:09 AM UTC

yesbabyyes wrote: post #135

icebraining wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Uber isn't forcing their workers at gunpoint, and it wasn't them that created the situation where the workers have no other alternatives. If people are forced to get a badly paid job at Uber because the alternative is worse, and you remove Uber, guess what happens to the people you're trying to help? If we want to help the people using Uber, we need to give them access to a better alternative so that they can lea…

I'm not talking about removing Uber. I'm not, and I don't get the idea DigitalSea is, in a position to "remove Uber". I'm not talking about any overarching ideology or abstract reasoning. I'm not "trying to help" people, either. I mean, it is what it is, right? What I take issue with is the reasoning that you and I almost have a moral imperative to go with the cheapest option, even though we are intelligent and well-…

By removing Uber, I mean boycott it. If the alternative to the drivers is worse, I don't see how can boycotting it be portrayed as helping anyone.

I do agree that we don't have a moral imperative of choosing the cheapest option, but who said we did?

I also don't agree with your language, by the way. Uber's drivers are not using Uber; Uber are using them.

I meant the drivers are using Uber, the app. Whether the drivers are being "used" is a consideration I'm happy to leave to someone else.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#138

Post by yesbabyyes » Thu, May 07, 2015, 7:21 AM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #137

yesbabyyes wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about removing Uber. I'm not, and I don't get the idea DigitalSea is, in a position to "remove Uber". I'm not talking about any overarching ideology or abstract reasoning. I'm not "trying to help" people, either. I mean, it is what it is, right? What I take issue with is the reasoning that you and I almost have a moral imperative to go with the cheapest option, even though we are intelligent and well-…

By removing Uber, I mean boycott it. If the alternative to the drivers is worse, I don't see how can boycotting it be portrayed as helping anyone. I do agree that we don't have a moral imperative of choosing the cheapest option, but who said we did? I also don't agree with your language, by the way. Uber's drivers are not using Uber; Uber are using them. I meant the drivers are using Uber, the app. Whether the driver…

If you know that the alternative costs twice as much, and you doubt that the driver offering a ride for cheap can actually support his family, you have a choice.

If you are worried someone else might take a chunk of the expensive ride, or if you prefer the cheap ride anyway, you could always tip. US is the land of tipping, right? But then again, that might feel weird since the payment is centralized... Funny, that.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#139

Post by Robin_Message » Thu, May 07, 2015, 7:24 AM UTC

yesbabyyes wrote: post #124

DigitalSea wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ouch. That hurts. You have taken such a small part of what I have said and used it to paint me as someone who is taking advantage of the fact that Uber offers cheaper fares than a taxi service. And then to add salt to injury, you throw in that last line. While I agree somewhat with your point, your comment was just plain rude. There are so many other ways you could have said what you wanted to say without launching a…

First off, I agree. It was rude and when I wrote it I was in a bad mood in general. I think the ensuing discussion is definitely worth my karma hit; I'm a little bit sorry that you had to receive that aggressiveness, but reading your response I have hope it's ok. What I felt when I read your post, and wrote my response, was not so much about you as about an attitude that I'm fed up with, which is basically "I can see…

I can heartily recommend a Fairphone to anyone bothered about the plight of workers in war-torn Congo. They have a new on coming out next year which I'm hoping will be Lollipop. (Current version is stuck on 4.2, which is a shame, but still totally workable.)

Also I think Intel is getting is stuff conflict-free.

Re: I was an undercover Uber driver

#140

Post by rconti » Thu, May 07, 2015, 7:34 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #70

jasonisalive wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire economic system is built around people trying to get the best deal possible for themselves. You can try and paint that as inhumane and abusive if you're commited to emotionalising economic dynamics, but it really doesn't make any sense. At the end of the day as long as the transactions are consensual, there's no need for this rhetoric of abuse. Uber drivers know the deal and they can take it or leave it. N…

> At the end of the day as long as the transactions are consensual, there's no need for this rhetoric of abuse. That's one of the biggest singular pieces of bullshit I see regurgitated in the discussions about market economy. For most of the people on this planet, a lot of Uber drivers included, there's little choice. They either have a job, or go hungry and homeless. The power asymmetry between an employer and emplo…

What's the idealized world you're comparing this to?

An agrarian economy? Guess what, you either farm and build a shelter, or you go hungry and homeless.

Sure, maybe an agrarian economy is too market-based for you.

Try living on a commune and being the guy who specializes in "doing fuckall". I'm not sure how long you'll be welcome.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make, but life isn't free or fair, and it never has been and never will be.

That's not a reason to not even try to make things better, but the tone of the "regurgitated bullshit" comment implies that it's being used to fight against some other, better system.