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Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#131

Post by Lawtonfogle »

lsaferite wrote: post #114
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't hold up. The argument that Y% of X is better than 100% of 0 for 100 > Y > 0 doesn't seem to hold up if we set Y to be really low, say .01%. Thus we accept that at some point, a certain percent of some amount of money is a 'slap in the face' compared to it being free and based on donations. That some people think that is at 25 instead of .01 does not mean they have a hidden agenda.

I'd say the person who can rightfully make that argument is the person choosing to sell or not sell their content.

My point is independent of who deserves to make that argument. I am merely saying that those who do make that argument are not always doing so with a hidden agenda.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#132

Post by darkmighty »

lsaferite wrote: post #114
Lawtonfogle wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't hold up. The argument that Y% of X is better than 100% of 0 for 100 > Y > 0 doesn't seem to hold up if we set Y to be really low, say .01%. Thus we accept that at some point, a certain percent of some amount of money is a 'slap in the face' compared to it being free and based on donations. That some people think that is at 25 instead of .01 does not mean they have a hidden agenda.

I'd say the person who can rightfully make that argument is the person choosing to sell or not sell their content.

Yes, but you cannot judge 25% sufficient (a priori) like that, just as you can't judge any % insufficient a priori. It may very well be too low and damage the community. And clearly the consensus was that it is too low.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#133

Post by kedean »

mcphage wrote: post #122
kedean wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core of the issue came down to the effects on the modder community. 1. Modders are hobbyists, not professionals. Many modders came right out and said they would no longer make mods under this system, because the pressure to charge means it becomes a job. They no longer would have the option to just walk away from the mod. 2. Piracy. Modders have explicitly made their mods available for free. Once you have a syste…

> In the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, because it's not a profession. I saw plenty of support for a donation system, however. So in the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, except they do WANT to be paid and call it a donation?

That comment is mostly by gamers, not modders. Also, the difference is that one assigns a worth, while the other is someone saying 'hey I appreciate what you do'.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#134

Post by inerte »

mcphage wrote: post #122
kedean wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core of the issue came down to the effects on the modder community. 1. Modders are hobbyists, not professionals. Many modders came right out and said they would no longer make mods under this system, because the pressure to charge means it becomes a job. They no longer would have the option to just walk away from the mod. 2. Piracy. Modders have explicitly made their mods available for free. Once you have a syste…

> In the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, because it's not a profession. I saw plenty of support for a donation system, however. So in the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, except they do WANT to be paid and call it a donation?

When you buy something you have some expectations. You'll want the mod to be stable, be updated along with the game, play along with other mods.

If you are the seller, and you got paid, that means work. Give support or get shouted at by dozens of angry customers. Reply to emails for months to come when a competitor modder added your mod features to his mod and why the hell are you charging 4.99 if it's worth 1.99 and now you need to refund your costumer.

Donations, on the other hand... explicit intent and different expectations from everyone involved.

Also, it might be neither "most don't want to be paid" nor "most want donation", and both sets might have a very small intersection.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#135

Post by mxfh »

Vespasian wrote: post #67
mxfh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they wanted 45% so Valve slapped on another 30% while not providing any or minimal QA from Valve or Bethesda for that other 75%?. As with the Store or Greenlight before outsourcing tasks to the community (reviews/greenlight votes) doesn't mean Valve isn't responsible for the stuff they offer in their store. A 24h hour refund policy is simply laughable when non-waiveable EU consumer rights regulations require 14 d…

> non-waiveable EU consumer rights regulations require 14 days I don't think this is true in the case of purely digital products. As far as I am aware of the german implementation of this regulation it explicitly allows to waive the rights before the first download. Like many companies steam does this during checkout ("I agree..").

That Steam allows it doesn't make it legally binding or compliant with current regulations which override any TOS/EULA in a given legal region.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consum...

«In the case of digital content, the cooling-off period expires when the downloading or streaming starts.»

Says you can't waive it; for digital downloads the 14 day period get's annulled once you start downloading/streaming, not at checkout. Since many more things can go wrong with software(games) then compared to linear media (books/music/video) that implementation is still questionable.

Untouched by this, at least in Germany every product sold (including Software) comes with two years of warranty ("Gewährleistung") which is established between the consumer an the reseller (at point of final sale, in this case Valve SARL) which first requires the reseller to provide a working product ("Nacherfüllung") if that's not possible the customer is entitled to a refund. Not that that this is found in many online shops in Germany, but those are the regulations that Valve has to follow by when selling software (games) to German customers.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#136

Post by talmand »

mcphage wrote: post #122
kedean wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core of the issue came down to the effects on the modder community. 1. Modders are hobbyists, not professionals. Many modders came right out and said they would no longer make mods under this system, because the pressure to charge means it becomes a job. They no longer would have the option to just walk away from the mod. 2. Piracy. Modders have explicitly made their mods available for free. Once you have a syste…

> In the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, because it's not a profession. I saw plenty of support for a donation system, however. So in the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, except they do WANT to be paid and call it a donation?

A donation doesn't instill the same level of responsibility to the product. A donation is to support a hobby, a payment is to support a job.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#137

Post by mhomde »

bamie9l wrote: post #110
AndrewDucker wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the reason it's not a profession is that it's currently not possible to be paid for it. Make that possible and you'd then have some professional modders and some amateur ones.

In this case I believe that allocating a dollar value to work done for the love of it, significantly devalues that work in the eyes of its creator.

Yeah, this is like the chapter out of "Drive" where they tried paying people to give blood but ending up decreasing the number of blood givers... they'd rather feel charitable then earn money

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#138

Post by lsaferite »

yebyen wrote: post #103
lsaferite wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally found Bethesda getting any split quite distasteful. They produced the game and made their money on game sales. If they continue to be responsive to bug reports and/or adding new features to the game then perhaps I can see a small amount going to them. Valve taking a cut I understand as they handle the sales and distribution platform. I'm not sure I think 30% is fair, but that's a different issue. As a re…

> I personally found Bethesda getting any split quite distasteful. So, you agree that Valve should get some part of the sales, because they are the ones (Steam) actually taking the payment and assuming some of the upfront risks of processing payments (fraud) and, because of the network effect and the customers they bring (read ... marketing) But Bethesda who developed the actual game that brought the modders and gave…

Bethesda did get something. They got my purchase of the original game plus all of the DLCs. All at initial sale prices to boot.

Do they deserve more than that?

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#139

Post by Mtinie »

mcphage wrote: post #107
mmf wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what would happen if GitHub placed a clone fee and split it between itself and the repo owner...

So basically, GitHub offering a service where users could charge for software, and get the source code as well? And not just a core dump, but be part of a community building up that source? ...That's a pretty solid idea.

^ this.

If anyone is interested in building it, send me a note, I'd love to be involved (but totally lack the skills to do it myself).

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#140

Post by XorNot »

cma wrote: post #71
michaelt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first they tried to give passionate content providers a way to also make some money. Given that the "passionate content providers" only make 25% of what users pay, I think that's a very generous interpretation. Edit: It doesn't matter if it's Valve or Bethesda or the tooth fairy that takes the remaining 75% - the fact is this system does little to accomplish the goal of "giving passionate content providers a way t…

If you make a Mickey Mouse sequel using derivative assets, how much of a cut would Disney want? Keeping in mind the assets would be open to competing high-caliber studios (back to the Skyrim example, just allowing for free modding generally precludes competing triple-A's from producing anything, but give them say a "fair" 75% cut of expansions or complete sequels to a competitor's bockbuster game, taking advantage of…

If you make a Mickey Mouse sequel, it doesn't require users to first buy a copy of the original movie.

Using a mod does. These two things are in no way comparable.

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