Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways • Hacker News Board

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#131

Post by MichaelGG » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:24 AM UTC

darcyparker wrote: post #62

canvia wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article has a lot of fear mongering about artificial sweeteners and then at the bottom an ad for "certifiedorganicevaporatedcanejuice.com". Maybe it's not the most objective source of information?

Rumsfeld was the CEO at Searle - the makers of Aspartame... And he used his political influence to replace the FDA commissioner so Aspartame could be legalized. That's a conflict of interest.

But then apart from the FDA, Canada, the UK, Europe, Singapore, probably many more, have all OK'd it and it's still approved. Surely his political influence doesn't cover dozens of countries over nearly half a century.

Aspartame is 50 years old now. Any researcher that showed a clear damaging effect would instantly be set for life, no? I know that isn't strong evidence, but it's some evidence.

I don't know what it is about artificial sweeteners in general, but I think people hate the idea of getting something for free, that you can literally enjoy a sweet dessert without paying for it in calories.

In SF, it's obnoxious, to the point of places not even carrying sucralose or aspartame, only , Stevia. Or people saying, with a straight face, "Yep, our tea has real sugar, so it's far better for you."

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#132

Post by pgsandstrom » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:27 AM UTC

darcyparker wrote: post #8

Aspartame (Nutrasweet) is pretty controversial in how it got approved by the FDA. See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robbie-gennet/donald-rumsfeld-... When I was 8 years old, I started having grand mal seizures and my parents noted a strong correlation between drinking a Diet Coke and having a seizure. When they eliminated it from my diet, my seizures declined. Fortunately I stopped having seizures around 12 years of…

Aspartame has been approved in many, many countries. It is unlikely that Rumsfeld influenced all of them.

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#133

Post by MichaelGG » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:38 AM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #5

number_six wrote: post #2

So sugar is good again?

> Methadone is really harmful. > So heroin is back in? Evidently, both are bad and it doesn't seem to be immediately clear whether real sugar or artificial is more harmful. But we do know for a fact that excess carbohydrate intake causes numerous serious health problems (heart problems, obesity, diabetes, Alzheimer's, etc).

OT: Heroin can actually be safer, due to the long onset and long lasting effects of methadone. Methadone can take several hours to kick in, leading patients to think they might not have taken enough, and take some more. It also lasts much longer than Heroin.

3x10mg methadone pills may be enough to cause an overdose in a naive patient. Given the long times involved, this isn't an unrealistic scenario. Whereas with Heroin, a: oral bioavailability is rather low, and b: action happens faster, thus an OD is less likely. (Not true for IV usage, but hopefully such patients exercise more caution in the first place, reality excepted.)

And both aren't really "bad" for you, as far as long-term medicines go. The side effect profile is positively tame compared to other commonly accepted medicines such as anti-depressants or mood stabilizers.

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#134

Post by gojomo » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 7:09 AM UTC

jheriko wrote: post #109

gojomo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caffeine and phenylalanine, in addition to the sweetness-without-actual-energy that is likely backfiring to create further sweet-cravings. (I wouldn't be surprised if research eventually concludes regular Coke is safer than Diet Coke, even given the problems with HFCS. So, if trying to quite Diet Coke, you might 1st want to try substituting regular Coke... which you might find more satiating and thus consume less of,…

I'm not sure you can describe an essential amino acid as an addictive substance... sure there is a strong desire to consume it, but its closer to things like oxygen, water or any vital thing that keeps you alive. Caffeine on the other hand has a well understood and documented mechanism of physical dependence, but its considered extremely mild compared to substances traditionally considered addictive (nicotine, alcoho…

Do people crave phenylalanine beyond the essential levels needed? There's strong hints some do, via both diet sodas and sugar-free gums. And there's a plausible mechanism, given phenylalanine's relation to key neurotransmitters, and its use in treating depression and other neurologic disorders.

(I suppose we could raise the same question about food in general. Obviously food is necessary, but can it ever make sense to talk about a 'food addiction'? Or perhaps more accurately, an 'overeating addiction'? I think it can, in some cases. For someone wondering why they feel 'addicted' to diet soda, the high levels of mood-altering phenylalanine from the aspartame is highly likely to be a factor.)

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#135

Post by DanBC » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 7:45 AM UTC

ccallebs wrote: post #33

DanBC wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But we do know for a fact that excess carbohydrate intake causes numerous serious health problems [...] Alzheimer's, Do we know that for a fact? Definitely?

Of course not. But there are varying degrees of evidence supporting the idea that consuming excess carbohydrates (and more specifically, "simple" carbohydrates) contributes to a wide array of health issues. We know consuming excess carbohydrates is bad for you the same way we know that climate change is happening. The same way we know that a sedentary lifestyle is detrimental to your health. The same way we know that…

I fully agree that sugar is harmful.

Parent post said "we know for a fact" that excess carbs cause alzheimers, and it is this specific strong claim that I'm challenging. I'm not even asking for "know for a fact". "Most researchers agree" will do.

Sugar causes overweight; but people who are overweight might be less likely to get alzheimers than people who are thin.

Today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-32233571

> Being overweight cuts the risk of dementia, according to the largest and most precise investigation into the relationship.

(Researchers who found this are cautious, saying this is just one study and that it conflicts with other research). But in 2011: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13213755

> Middle aged people who are overweight but not obese, are 71% more likely to develop dementia than those with a normal weight, according to research.

And confusingly in 2009 we thought that rapid weight loss might be an early sign of dementia: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8055030.stm

> Researchers have produced more evidence that rapid weight loss in old age may be a early warning sign of dementia.

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#136

Post by minikites » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 9:46 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #59

minikites wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "correlation does not equal causation" I hate this phrase so much because it's so often used to imply that "because there is correlation it means there can't be causation" > Tufte suggests that the shortest true statement that can be made about causality and correlation is one of the following: > "Empirically observed covariation is a necessary but not sufficient condition for causality." > "Correlation is not caus…

So often used to imply what ? I've seen a lot of people ignoring correlation when they really shouldn't, I have never in my life seen them using the implication backwards. How often do you see that?

I might be misunderstanding what you're saying, but I see exactly what I mentioned in the parent comment, which is why I wrote my comment.

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#137

Post by jleyank » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 11:58 AM UTC

lucaspiller wrote: post #114

jleyank wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted, one person is an anecdote not data but switching from coke to diet coke lost me 20 lbs in a year. 500-1000 calories less each day.

You must have been drinking around 2 litres of Coke for that many calories. Have you tried switching from Diet Coke to water? You'll need a few trips to Starbucks a day (an americano has 0 kcal, it's like caffeinated air!) until you can reduce your caffiene dependence.

Given the college or hacker environment, a six-pack or 2l over the course of 18 hours isn't a lot to drink. Healthy, no, but then neither is doing a 12" pizza solo and that was pretty commonplace as well. Coffee shops didn't exist, and even if they did, it's hard to beat a quarter a can. Hacking without caffeine? Gunna take a while...

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#138

Post by beat » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 2:06 PM UTC

sjolsen wrote: post #127

beat wrote: post #70

I'm currently trying to kick a Diet Coke habit (my equivalent of smoking), which I think is contributing to several health problems, not the least of which is carrying about 40 pounds more than I should around. Part of it, which isn't covered by these studies, is how a reliance on diet soda affects your diet overall. It serves as a lubricant, for lack of a better word, for dense starchy carbs and salt. I can wolf dow…

I'm assuming you're talking about canker sores. I don't know how much help this will be to you, but here it is anyway: You may have tried these, but I've found the best ways to dull the pain are swishing 50/50 Maalox/Benadryl and using a styptic pencil. Also, I've found in my case that what helps most to prevent them is keeping my mouth as clean as possible. The two main causes I've identified are illness and physica…

It's diagnosed as lichen planus... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichen_planus

It's possible that the core trigger is actually a beta blocker I'm on for high blood pressure. If so, I'll deal with the lichen planus - seriously, I'd rather have a sore mouth than a stroke.

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#139

Post by beat » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 2:08 PM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #101

trekky1700 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have a bad Diet Coke habit. Drink cans and cans a day. I hear Elon Musk and Bill Gates also drink copious amounts. I wonder what it is about Diet Coke that's so addictive.

Caffeine and phenylalanine, in addition to the sweetness-without-actual-energy that is likely backfiring to create further sweet-cravings. (I wouldn't be surprised if research eventually concludes regular Coke is safer than Diet Coke, even given the problems with HFCS. So, if trying to quite Diet Coke, you might 1st want to try substituting regular Coke... which you might find more satiating and thus consume less of,…

I don't have much of a sweet craving. I turn down dessert much of the time, don't like candy generally.

What Diet Coke makes me crave is starches - "crunchy salt" in my wife's parlance. Potato chips, popcorn, crackers, stuff like that.

Re: Artificial Sweeteners May Change Our Gut Bacteria in Dangerous Ways

#140

Post by mistercow » Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 2:19 PM UTC

pragmar wrote: post #98

6t6t6 wrote: post #95

I really don't understand the need for "diet" soft drinks. I mean, soft drinks are ok, to drink sometimes. But if someone is drinking enough soft drink to worry about the amount of sugar intake, then he is drinking too much sodas. Soft drinks are like "light" cigarettes. What is the problem about drinking water?

The need is for the caffeine--the easiest way to get off the diet soda train is green tea, and to ease off the caffeine from there. Others just don't find water satisfying for other reasons, which I can relate to. I tend to drink a 60/40% mix of seltzer and fruit juice, which after a week or so adapting tastes surprisingly sweet. In any case, there are options beyond water that aren't all bad.

Plenty of popular sodas are not caffeinated, so that's probably not the reason.