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American students head to Germany for free college

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Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was much better prepared than Americans or British. But Americans have much better job opportunities that make them better than Europeans after working some time in any field. Great comment. Anyway I will never leave Europe for US/Canada/Australia[1]. I've visited some family in the latter and I feel that the advantages of these countries are not enough to make me live there. Exchanging peace of mind and a huge dec…

> Exchanging peace of mind and a huge decrease of life quality for some extra probabilities of being rich and extra consumption doen't worth IMO. I don't think you understand what it's like to live in the US and Canada as an educated worker. >* but they are still "new world" countries, where the main goal of voluntary "colonizers" was/is getting rich and be able to consume more than in their native countries.* Whoa,…

I didn't say that European people are better than the others - they aren't, I just said I prefer Europe system/way of life comparing with Australia (the only one where I've had a long stay). I even said that "new world"[1] countries have some advantages.

[1] I couldn't find a better term to refer to western world outside Europe, I don't have the intention of hurting anybody's feelings.

[2] With "voluntary colonists" I don't mean only English colonists, I mean emmigrants in general.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#132
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state pays for your education. Germany has a very good engineering education. Where do you think comes the brand "made in germany" from? We germans still build the best cars and machines.

Slight correction: the brand "made in Germany" was initially invented to warn against low quality products from Germany (19th century used to be a lot of copycat). Quality got better and the meaning changed. [pretty sure it was also used as a "business propaganda" instrument after WW2 and only tipped to "good stuff" after that]

Young Doc: No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan".

Marty McFly: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.

Young Doc: Unbelievable.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#133
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most (all? not sure) of the Nordic countries it's not scholarships (well, you have scholarships too), but at least used to be blanket grants to everyone that qualifies for a university place, combined with cheap loans. The grants when I studied in Norway were not huge, but they were unconditional for some number of years as long as you could document that you were still studying (basically it was sufficient to sig…

Yes, this is indeed the case. For a typical university student, you get a grant of 335,32€ a month and a up to 201,60€ for residence (up to 80% of the your rent). And up to 400€ a month of government-guaranteed cheap student loan. If you are skimpy, it's just about enough to get along.

In Denmark I get around €750 per month from the government as a student, and I can take another €400 euro or so as a very low interest loan if I want. I can also apply for assistance with rent as needed.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#134

As a german who works for a german university, i would like to point out that studying is actually not totally free. Here at the University of applied sciences in Münster, you would have to pay a total 235€ every six month, consisting of a social contribution of 85.44€ and a student body contribution of 145.75€, for which you will get a ticket for free travel by bus or by train inside North Rhine-Westphalia for the w…

> As the website stated, we need skilled immigrants, because with a birth rate of just 1.3 childs per woman, the germans are slowly dying out

I had wondered why the German taxpayers would be so generous to American students. Perhaps this will last longer than I expected, especially if some of the students hang around after graduation. I can't imagine it being official policy, but the obvious way to hook people into staying would be to get them married to Germans before graduation.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#135

Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast. I studied engineering in Europe. When I went to Boston or London to work it was like I was the boss or something because I was much better prepared than Americans or British. But Americans have much better job opportunities that make them better than Europeans after working some time in a…

> Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast. While Universities in the UK (and probably the US as well?) boast with their retention rates that seem to approach SLA levels of nine nines, it is the exact opposite in Germany. Some of our universities are proud of their drop-out rates >50%, partly because only good students will get a…

I went to undergrad in the US, and there's a similar, but disguised, phenomenon. The difficult majors (ie: faculties/degree paths) would have very high "drop-out rates", in terms of people changing tracks after the first year or two. So indeed, less than half the people who entered with a declared intention of completing a degree in Physics, Engineering, Computer Science, or Mathematics would actually do so.

Quite a few could be found in the social-sciences and humanities departments after they were "weeded out" of the hard sciences. Personally, I think this is a crappy way to run things, since it means social-science and humanities professors have to deal with lots of students who are only there for a generic degree they can manage to obtain rather than for the specific degree path.

On the other hand, I put scare-quotes on the "weeded out", because often the precise method of weeding out weaker students is to simply not even try to teach well in the first year or two of math, science, programming, and engineering courses. So for instance, my fiancee actually cleared all her differential and integral calculus requirements via Advanced Placement (exams high-schoolers can take that grant university credits), with perfect scores, but when she tried to take Linear Algebra in our undergrad math department, she found the teaching so bad that she struggled to understand anything at all. Despite this, she pulled an A- in the course and was one of the top three students in her class/section -- but insists she barely understood anything at all.

It really makes me wonder what kind of pedagogical wonders we'd see if university professors were actually trying to teach well in courses below the third year.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#136
post #118

As a german who works for a german university, i would like to point out that studying is actually not totally free. Here at the University of applied sciences in Münster, you would have to pay a total 235€ every six month, consisting of a social contribution of 85.44€ and a student body contribution of 145.75€, for which you will get a ticket for free travel by bus or by train inside North Rhine-Westphalia for the w…

It is not about it being completely free. The whole point is how 235€ or even 1000€ per semester is nothing compared to tens of thousands americans pay in tuiton. Top universities in the US like MIT and Stanford charge over $40000 per year. With half of that you could comfortably live as a student in Germany for a year with all expenses paid. I live as a student in Germany on 650€/mo. That's less than $10000 a year.

Until recently we paid 500€ in Bavaria per semester additionally to the around 50€ we still have to pay and abolishing it made quite the difference, especially to people whose parents don't earn that much.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#137
The CS department at the German university I work for started offering their lectures in English a number of years back. While a very good command of English is not uncommon in other parts of Europe, such as e.g. Scandinavia, this move is remarkable in my opinion because English is (more or less) ubiquitous only in the younger generation in Germany. A lot of middle-aged people do not speak English, or only at a very rudimentary level. Of course you won't have any problems getting around just on English in places like Berlin or Heidelberg, but this effect does not generalize across the board.

So the biggest problem I see with moving to English within the German higher education system is that it creates the illusion that you don't really need to speak German to live in that country. But at the university, you live inside a bubble: some of my coworkers have come here from other countries five or more years ago, and still speak hardly any German. And that's fine because the working language in our department is de facto English. There are even German classes that the university offers and that some of my coworkers took, but since they never really needed it inside the bubble, their success at learning German has remained rather humble.

Now, one of my coworker wants to move on from academia and has been looking for jobs -- IT-related, that is. He's (over?)-specialized (with his PhD almost finished) in a specific area (speech signal analysis), but basically speaks no German. He's having a really hard time getting any reactions at all to his job applications. Most of the time, the companies do not even send rejection notes. I've been helping him a little bit with this, and given his credentials, I really find it difficult to understand why he cannot even get to the interview stage -- except for his lack of German.

The big problem is: if he cannot find something very soon, his visa will expire and he will be forced to leave the country. He's got a wife and two young daughters, the younger one of which was 2 years old when the family came to Germany. She's now 7 -- Germany is the country she grew up in, and she might be forced to leave it soon and move to the country of her father. Ironically, she doesn't even speak her parents' language perfectly.

So, there is a caveat when studying in Germany if your goal is to start a life here afterwards. Language matters.

What I cannot understand at all in this matter, though, is that by offering university courses in English and not requiring students to acquire very good German skills as well, Germany is basically investing a lot of (tax) money in the education of people who are more or less guaranteed to leave again when they're done with their studies.

The return of investment is thus pretty low... you could say, almost non-existent.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#138
post #32
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss. Nobody likes to pay taxes and everybody complains about the high taxes. But I think (actually hope!) that Germans understand (if only unconsciously) that happiness is much more depending on getting old without fear of poverty, knowing to be treated if ill, being able to go safely outside anytime anywhere, not dropping out of society if b…

Where did you get the idea that Swiss are obsessed with not paying taxes ? In fact Switzerland and Germany are very similar in all the aspects you mention.

I agrree. Being German, it's my impression that the Swiss are even more honest with taxes than the Germans. The general impression in many countries rather is: The Swiss are very honest with their taxes, but don't care about tax honesty about foreigners in their own countries (getting people to be honest about their taxes is a problem that each country has to solve by itself). This is different from the German mentality - also rather honest, but very missionary about tax honesty in other countries (especially the Greek seem to have a serious problem with this ;-) ). As one says humorously in German "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen." (freely translated with "The world shall recover by the German quiddity.").

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Education in Europe is not free. You pay with your qualifications. If your university grades are not good enough, you go out fast. Could you be a little more specific? The size of Europe, America and Asia is too huge for statements like that. There are definitely universities in Europe that are more similar to some in the US than other universities in Europe. I'm a student in Sweden and I have not experienced anyth…

I know how engineering courses look like in Poland. Universities are 100% free, but they have absolutely no qualms about kicking out weaker students. Electrical engineering course at any of the largest universities in Poland will enroll 300-400 people,but 200 of them will fail the first year. The last year is usually finished by In contrast, I studied in UK and getting through university at an Engineering course was…

As an anecdote, some years ago, I heard about people in Poland that enroll in college (where education is nearly free) just to have access to student discounts!

Student discounts used to be massive in public transportation, accommodation and almost everywhere, even in some restaurants and bars in academic cities. Nowadays these discounts are not as they used to be, so I don't think it is still a common practice.

Re: American students head to Germany for free college

#140
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss. Nobody likes to pay taxes and everybody complains about the high taxes. But I think (actually hope!) that Germans understand (if only unconsciously) that happiness is much more depending on getting old without fear of poverty, knowing to be treated if ill, being able to go safely outside anytime anywhere, not dropping out of society if b…

I'm German and I'm happy to pay taxes. You do get something for everyone in return (infrastructure, education, some social security (which has been eroded, unfortunately), health care, etc). Also, I studied in the UK and my tuition fees have been payed by the UK government. So it seems only fair to invite others to study in Germany.

You do get something for everyone in return

I think that this is the crux of it. In my experience in the U.S., my taxes are funding things that I not only get no benefit from, but actively oppose on a moral level. That makes it a much harder thing to accept.

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