In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas • Hacker News Board

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#131

Post by throwaway9324 » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:12 PM UTC

anthony_d wrote: post #123

throwaway9324 wrote: post #69

This is a pretty bad opinion piece using scare quotes, personal attacks and anecdotal commentary. It's disappointing to see this up-voted since people here aren't interested in a debate, but just to affirming there own views on the subject. I pretty glad I got out of the mainstream tech industry when I had the chance. Edit: And yes please reaffirm what cowards you are by down-voting instead of replying.

Well, it does look trollish to complain about the lack of debate without actually debating a point. Do you have an on-topic opinion to share?

I realize that it can look that way. But what could I do to have a fair chance to refute something that is made to be hard to disagree with, as most opinion pieces are? Where the subject is also something that I and the audience are inexperienced with and where the audience share the emotion being expressed in the article.

Regardless, here is my on-topic opinion. Colleges are one of the few places in society where you can experiment with different ideas. If those ideas always have to be holistic in regards to the schools well-being or in-line with that the NY times thinks they will very easy be limited. Wildly disagreeing is a good thing, including disagreeing with what, how, when and where you can disagree. Say you weren't able to try to censor something, then few people would see the importance of free speech.

If there's anyone who should be criticized, to the extent they are guilty, it's not those who express their opinions, but the schools themselves. They are the "referees".

The article of course on purpose disregards the fact that these kind of groups, regardless if you agree with them or not, often have very well-thought out arguments, stories and reasons behind their actions.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#132

Post by kyllo » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:13 PM UTC

cheatsheet wrote: post #81

tunesmith wrote: post #8

It wasn't so long ago that "trigger warning" wasn't even a common phrase. I remember thinking about this in college, though, because I was in a relationship with someone who would get angry at people for expressing input that was too closely related to recent private trauma she had been through. I didn't really understand it because I had always trained myself to judge the producer of input by the intent of the produ…

I am sort of on the fence on this. On one hand, I do not like pursuing ignorance. On the other, I do not objectively know the difference between a mind that is repeatedly triggered by random noise that can immediately bring my mind back into a state of flipping between catatonia and hyper-stress/hyper-alert, and a mind that is able to control information flow and pursue it's goals (such as a phd and happiness in life…

It's really not a black-and-white issue, so I think it's perfectly OK to be on the fence about it.

I might roll my eyes at the phrase "trigger warning" sometimes but on the other hand I recognize that the whole reason why this concept exists is because there are forms of abuse and violence that have been pervasive in our society all along, they've just been swept under the rug, their victims intimidated, silenced and shut out of the public discourse. It's not a reason to censor the media, but it also wouldn't kill us to have a little sensitivity when discussing these topics.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#133

Post by tunesmith » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:20 PM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #105

JohnBooty wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have had problems with people thinking I'm arguing or > attacking their ideas, when I am only looking for a > debate and a more thorough view of their ideas and > line of thinking. Noble intent, poor execution. Consider that people in oppressed groups (women, victims of sexual assault, ethnic minorities) have had their legitimacy questioned and denied throughout most if not all of history. And then along comes yo…

> Give them room to express their views, even if you think they're wrong, because this is something they are often denied the right to do. Everyone should have a platform to safely express their opinions, but if their opinions are incorrect then they should be challenged and debated. Statements shouldn't be protected from scrutiny just because they are being uttered by a woman or a minority.

So, a couple of things - I enjoy thinking about this subject so I've made some distinctions for myself on this in the past.

First, I like the distinction between dialectic and debate. It's possible to learn more about someone's point of view through asking interested questions and (together) exploring where their beliefs lead, without necessarily challenging them in a debate sense. Debate often means scoring points using non-logical rhetoric. Dialectic is more the spirit of being on the same team, exploring a point together, and I don't see it as less efficient in any sense.

Second, normative conclusions (as most opinions are) are a combination of moral axioms and a bunch of logical syllogisms. I think an opinion can be judged "incorrect" in two ways. First, they are reasoning badly from their premises (valid but unsound). That can be fun to explore in a dialectic sense to see if the logical framework can be tightened up or if the conclusion can be modified. But the other common way an opinion can be "incorrect" is if it soundly, logically flows from moral axioms (values) that you simply disagree with. And those sorts of axioms aren't correct or incorrect by definition. This is usually the appropriate time to agree to disagree, or respect where the other person is coming from.

But either way, this all requires having a certain level of empathy or respect for your counterpart's point of view and intent.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#134

Post by joesmo » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:23 PM UTC

So basically colleges and universities are shirking their duty to their students of providing them with proper education because they're afraid of lawsuits which the college will likely easily win. The whole "politically correct" culture of censorship, which this seems to be just another instantiation of, has just gone too far and too few people are willing to stand up against its censorship. There's nothing wrong with safe rooms per se until the existence of such safe rooms deprives others of their right to peaceful assembly, free association, and free speech, something that seems to be the goal of some of these organizers. Censorship is censorship and people who fall for these ploys are fools themselves while the people perpetrating these ploys are the ones who should be prevented from trampling others' rights. To put it more bluntly, if you can't deal with opposing opinions, it's your duty to not expose yourself to them, not anyone else's problem. It's despicable to try to remove others' rights because you're a cowardly child. Furthermore, if these people insist on being children, then they should have the rights of children (ie: highly reduced) and their opinions on such adult matters should be discarded (ie: we don't let children vote). I'd like to think that they could grow up mentally and stop being children, but I'm not so sure that many of these people have that capability.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#135

Post by feedjoelpie » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:23 PM UTC

pkinsky wrote: post #108

tunesmith wrote: post #8

It wasn't so long ago that "trigger warning" wasn't even a common phrase. I remember thinking about this in college, though, because I was in a relationship with someone who would get angry at people for expressing input that was too closely related to recent private trauma she had been through. I didn't really understand it because I had always trained myself to judge the producer of input by the intent of the produ…

I'm a bit of an edge case here, as I'm more-or-less triggered by certain comments on Christianity. Let me explain: I'm Assyrian, a member of a middle eastern minority Christian ethnic group. Fortunately my grandparents emigrated from Iraq before Saddam. Many of us aren't so lucky. ISIS is known for their mass beheadings of Christians and bulldozing of Assyrian historical sites, among other atrocities. Some prominent…

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like you merely take offense. Perhaps the issue has been blurred through popular usage, but the "trigger warning" culture arose around social and environmental "triggers" that might cause someone to have a PTSD episode or to re-engage in self-destructive behavior (think eating disorders as a common case here).

And even so, if the point had been to halt discussion, there would be no such thing as "trigger warning" because the only reason to warn anyone is so that the discussion can still go forward, and people who feel the need can excuse themselves. How often we should promote discussion in which people feel the need to excuse themselves, however, is worth consideration.

When I see this quote in the article, “I was feeling bombarded by a lot of viewpoints that really go against my dearly and closely held beliefs,” I wince a bit too.

Offending and triggering are not the same thing. And although people within that political sphere are sometimes guilty of using the terms interchangeably, those who criticize that political sphere are often guilty of treating the entire thing as ridiculous. When in so many circumstances it's really not. I mean, you wouldn't dismiss the needs of a solider who had trouble around loud noises.

We just all need to be really careful about distinguishing between offensiveness (a matter of opinion) and triggering (a matter of involuntary mental state).

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#136

Post by tunesmith » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 6:30 PM UTC

washadjeffmad wrote: post #120

tunesmith wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always rolled my eyes at complaints about the "trophy generation" (Adam Carolla had a particularly brain-deadening rant about it), but this article honestly did get me wondering about how people like that would be able to cope with actual professional atmospheres after college. On the other hand, this article is an editorial that doesn't really try to quantify the problem, so maybe "people like that" aren't real…

They've been taught, whether or not they realize it, how to morally ransom others, guiltlessly. To ignore them is to marginalize them, to disagree with them is to threaten them, and to oppose them is assault. It's incredibly hypocritical and self-centered behavior, especially for an adult. And what I fear is that they'll shape whatever environments that will allow it because everyone else has kowtowed to their feelin…

"To ignore them is to marginalize them, to disagree with them is to threaten them, and to oppose them is assault."

Sort of off topic, but what's interesting is that this sounds a lot like indicators of borderline personality disorder.

At any rate though, these sorts of articles basically ascribe a narrative to an entire generation, which isn't really fair. Those sorts of impulses are easily grown out of for most people, and people who are diagnosed borderline come from all generations. I think the current thinking is that borderline has both nature and nurture components - some from environment, some genetic.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#137

Post by JohnBooty » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 8:55 PM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #105

JohnBooty wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have had problems with people thinking I'm arguing or > attacking their ideas, when I am only looking for a > debate and a more thorough view of their ideas and > line of thinking. Noble intent, poor execution. Consider that people in oppressed groups (women, victims of sexual assault, ethnic minorities) have had their legitimacy questioned and denied throughout most if not all of history. And then along comes yo…

> Give them room to express their views, even if you think they're wrong, because this is something they are often denied the right to do. Everyone should have a platform to safely express their opinions, but if their opinions are incorrect then they should be challenged and debated. Statements shouldn't be protected from scrutiny just because they are being uttered by a woman or a minority.

   > if their opinions are incorrect

Yes, for things with objective answers. If somebody is, you know, claiming that Mac OS9 was better than Windows 95 because OS9 had preemptive multitasking and Win95 didn't - then sure, correct them.

When we're in the realm of issues like racial inequality, gender relations, etc - I'd be really cautious about deeming anybody "incorrect."

These are issues that have challenged humankind as long as we've been on this Earth, and we haven't exactly worked out any ironclad solutions yet.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#138

Post by Gifford » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:41 PM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #105

JohnBooty wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have had problems with people thinking I'm arguing or > attacking their ideas, when I am only looking for a > debate and a more thorough view of their ideas and > line of thinking. Noble intent, poor execution. Consider that people in oppressed groups (women, victims of sexual assault, ethnic minorities) have had their legitimacy questioned and denied throughout most if not all of history. And then along comes yo…

> Give them room to express their views, even if you think they're wrong, because this is something they are often denied the right to do. Everyone should have a platform to safely express their opinions, but if their opinions are incorrect then they should be challenged and debated. Statements shouldn't be protected from scrutiny just because they are being uttered by a woman or a minority.

Try putting as much effort into correcting your own mistakes as you do into correcting others. Being correct but in a biased way is practically equivalent to being wrong.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#139

Post by Gifford » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #137

Thriptic wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Give them room to express their views, even if you think they're wrong, because this is something they are often denied the right to do. Everyone should have a platform to safely express their opinions, but if their opinions are incorrect then they should be challenged and debated. Statements shouldn't be protected from scrutiny just because they are being uttered by a woman or a minority.

> if their opinions are incorrect Yes, for things with objective answers. If somebody is, you know, claiming that Mac OS9 was better than Windows 95 because OS9 had preemptive multitasking and Win95 didn't - then sure, correct them. When we're in the realm of issues like racial inequality, gender relations, etc - I'd be really cautious about deeming anybody "incorrect." These are issues that have challenged humankind…

But computer programmers are logical by training and profession, so we can trust that our own analyses are always correct.

Re: In College and Hiding from Scary Ideas

#140

Post by Gifford » Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #53

jnbiche wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the GP and GGP both are great points, and I aspire to that state of mind myself (not always reaching it, but trying to). That said, it definitely bugs me when someone comes to be "looking for a debate", so that may be why people have reacted negatively. I can generally tell when someone's genuinely concerned with an issue, and when someone wants to provoke me into a debate. I prefer not to spend much tim…

To me, the difference between what I read blumkvist to mean by debate and what I read you to mean is that blumkvist's debate is more like your discussion - teasing out the details, attacking the issue from a different angle to find out what the limits are, finding not just the flaws and shortcoming, but also the benefits of whatever is being discussed. Often this is done by playing devils advocate or by playing dumb…

On some topics of debate, as it goes, they say, "the Devil has enough advocates already".