Live data from Hacker News

This bakery will hire anyone

grist.org

131–140 of 171 posts

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#131
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's no wonder recidivism is so high in the US. To those who make very comfortable livings in the US legal system, that is not a bug, it's a designed feature. Oh, and oddly enough, they happen to be the same people whom make the sentencing laws.

I realize it's fun to paint lawyers with the same brush, but let's be clear here: prosecutors are the ones gunning after constant guilty convictions, and the Roberts Supreme Court has stripped even the most basic ways to challenge their abuses.

Right...they sure are, and I know from direct experience.

However, paid defense lawyers sure get a nice dividend from these recidivists.

Cops get the jobs, status, and power they seek from arresting them.

The prison industrial complex owes it's entire business model to them (as first-timers rarely get state prison time), and the last time I checked, DOC was the largest state budget item for CA and FL (I'll admit to maybe being a little off here)

Need I go on?

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#132
post #101
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh … German labor law, for example, while quite strict when it comes to firing long-term employees, has several mechanisms in place that would make this easily possible with new hires. Lawmakers of course have long recognized that to spur companies to hire new people they have to give them a way out when they notice it doesn't work out during the first couple months. First, it's possible to time limit an employment c…

This might help, but it's still completely bizarre that you can't fire someone for any reason. An employee does not have a "right" to a job. You do work you get paid, it's transactional. It's not "your" job - it belongs to your employer.

Two points: first, there's an inherently unequal balance of power in the employment relationship, and it favors the employer. This has been recognized going back to Adam Smith if not before, quote from An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations below.

Second: the "right" to a job (or not) exists (or doesn't) because that's how the relationship's been defined in law. Law to which, again, employers have an unequal access vis a vis employees. And such relationships aren't recognized in other contexts. If you bring a child into the world, you cannot shirk your obligations to that child (unless you ensure, through adoption, etc., that they're otherwise met). It's quite possible to envision a regime in which employers do assume a responsibility for their employees.

On Smith:

"What are the common wages of labour, depends everywhere upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little, as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower, the wages of labour.

"It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily: and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit, their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work, but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes, the masters can hold out much longer. A landlord, a farmer, a master manufacturer, or merchant, though they did not employ a single workman, could generally live a year or two upon the stocks, which they have already acquired. Many workmen could not subsist a week, few could subsist a month, and scarce any a year, without employment. In the long run, the workman may be as necessary to his master as his master is to him; but the necessity is not so immediate.

"We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform, combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate. To violate this combination is everywhere a most unpopular action, and a sort of reproach to a master among his neighbours and equals."

Book I, Chapter IV, "Of the Wages of Labour"

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3300

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#133

This relates to the hiring post tptacek wrote: "Over the years, Brady has come to suspect that the traditional metrics for determining who will be a good employee are flawed. Someone without an arrest may simply be a person who has never gotten caught." I'm guessing that you can find better people this way, felony or not by providing an on boarding process with the open expectation that not succeeding there means you…

As I commented above, see the direct documented evidence out of Ferguson, MO regards arrest and conviction rates for blacks vs. whites.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9164772

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Change of scenery is an important thing when trying to break out of a bad pattern. Novelty is actually processed by a different part of the brain than whatever rut we may be in is. The book Iconoclast explains that even moving furniture around can put us into a more creative state, because our creativity is activated by novelty.

And getting them out of their "social" situation of hanging out with other addicts. Addicts reinforce each other's habits.

Addicts are very lonely people whom are simply trying to connect with people but have some sort of synaptic wiring issue that prevents them from successfully doing so without the use of powerful pharmaceuticals (or anything that releases dopamine, really) that both create false bonds of dependency and mood-altered states.

That is why research shows over and over that creating new environments and new "friendships" (the cornerstone of AA and NA) is of crucial importance.

It's so hard for "normal" people to see and understand this because (from my personal experiences)...

1. the addict often seems like the life of the party (at least in the beginning of the story) and no one thinks that person is lonely.

2. normal people, for the most part, discover and nurture these connections so automatically that they can't understand how it could feel for it not to work, thus addiction is totally baffling to them.

To me, the crown jewel of Neuroscience would be to come up with a successful treatment to addiction that worked directly on the brain and didn't require the complete overhaul of your life that inpatient and outpatient treatment demand.

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#135
post #65
post #15

As someone with several drug related felonies on my record, I can do nothing but applaud the efforts of this CEO, although on a different level I wonder if any adult working a minimum wage job isn't living a very bleak existence anyway, and in fact isn't being exploited for having a brain disorder we currently call "addiction" The problem with people who let drugs seriously affect their life is that...they let drugs…

I wonder if a Silicon Valley tech company would care about drug related convictions. I don't think possession/distribution/etc. alone would really be an issue (except if it were extremely recent and potentially ongoing), but clearly "I was high and raped/killed my neighbor" would, and either could arguably be "drug related". "Was an addict and broken into cars to get money for drugs" would be a more interesting corne…

Depends on the company. They will definitely care if you lie about it.

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#136
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking "drug convictions" into account is a form of discrimination. If the FDA revoked the licensing of Prozac or the DEA scheduled it tomorrow, suddenly tons of people would be guilty of drug-crimes. It'd criminalize being depressed. The same is true for the current state of drug laws. We're criminalizing people with anxiety, with existential pain, stress, curiosity, etc. What's different about stealing cars for mon…

> What's different about stealing cars for money for medications, versus stealing cars for money for bread They are totally different! Someone stealing for bread, i.e. to survive, will never consider crime if they don't absolutely have to. So they may have committed a crime, but they are not a criminal. But someone stealing for drugs demonstrate a level of selfishness that does make them a criminal, i.e. someone who…

But someone stealing for drugs demonstrate a level of selfishness that does make them a criminal

Perhaps you'd like to become acquainted with addiction[1] and substance dependence[2]. They are real issues that people (those who you call criminally selfish) have to deal with, (generally) alone.

Due to societal attitudes towards drug use and the overly harsh treatment of users by the criminal justice system, people suffering from addiction often do not receive the medical and psychological attention they need. In a better world we'd be willing/able to provide that, but we aren't there yet.

People start doing drugs for many different reasons, but some people can't handle their crack. An addict can be a threat to themselves and/or others, not because they are "bad" or "selfish", but because they are mentally ill. Addicts need rehab, not punishment.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#137
post #115
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might help, but it's still completely bizarre that you can't fire someone for any reason. An employee does not have a "right" to a job. You do work you get paid, it's transactional. It's not "your" job - it belongs to your employer.

> An employee does not have a "right" to a job. ... says you. Someone else might say that a human being has the right to realize his potential in an activity and be allowed to sustain himself and his family out of such activity -- which in practice means there is such a thing as "the right to have a job". There is a lot of philosophic and economic literature on the subject; several nation states even wrote it in thei…

> Someone else might say that a human being has the right to realize his potential in an activity and be allowed to sustain himself and his family out of such activity

So... I have a right to sustain myself and my family by picking my nose?

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#138
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bakery, requiring little to no skills, and nothing more than being able to repeat physical activity, and only 35% make it through the program (a 10 month on-the-job job). I don't think this is the "success" story it's being made to be.

>only 35% make it through the program. That is better than not having the program at all and having the addicts stay where they are. I think it is a success, because helping one addict is successful and now that person is a beacon of light. Other addicts will see that they are doing something productive, they got clean, and that maybe, they can get clean and get a job too. I think there's more to it than just who mad…

Programs aren't measured solely by absolute success rate. They are also measured by success rate relative to alternative approaches to the same problem that could be enabled by the same resources.

Which is to say "35% > 0%" sounds good, but would wilt in the presence of "35% < 45%". Might I suggest a different set of evaluation criteria?

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#139
post #130
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An employee does not have a "right" to a job. ... says you. Someone else might say that a human being has the right to realize his potential in an activity and be allowed to sustain himself and his family out of such activity -- which in practice means there is such a thing as "the right to have a job". There is a lot of philosophic and economic literature on the subject; several nation states even wrote it in thei…

> Someone else might say that a human being has the right to realize his potential in an activity You do realize that you saying "we should force this other person to hire someone so that he can realize his potential"? Why is that other person (the employer) the sacrifice here?

Because of where original capital came from, and where it should go in the future.

You should check out a few XVII/XIX-century European philosophers like Rousseau, Proudhon etc.

Re: This bakery will hire anyone

#140
post #137
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An employee does not have a "right" to a job. ... says you. Someone else might say that a human being has the right to realize his potential in an activity and be allowed to sustain himself and his family out of such activity -- which in practice means there is such a thing as "the right to have a job". There is a lot of philosophic and economic literature on the subject; several nation states even wrote it in thei…

> Someone else might say that a human being has the right to realize his potential in an activity and be allowed to sustain himself and his family out of such activity So... I have a right to sustain myself and my family by picking my nose?

The nature of the activity in question is debatable, usually it's formulated in terms of something useful to the community, but that's beside the point. The point is the origin of capital versus its destination from now on.
Post reply on HN