Show me the salary! • Hacker News Board

Re: Show me the salary!

#131

Post by firebird84 » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #58

emodendroket wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is all the recruiters who call you to ask if you want to do temp-to-perm work when you have a full-time job. Why would you agree to that?

Well, clearly the temp salary should be much higher than perm salary in order to compensate for the extra risk, right?

Not just the extra risk, but often times you are missing out on very significant benefits which you will have to pay for out of pocket if you want them back. In my position, salary is probably about 75% of my compensation, all told. Maybe less.

Re: Show me the salary!

#132

Post by solarmist » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

xivzgrev wrote: post #124

I think a big reason people get into poker is Expectation of negotiation. If employee talks first, the number can only go down. If the employer talks first, the number can only go up. It's unfortunately wide spread. I wish we lived in a world where people saw a fair offer and accepted it without automatically asking for more (employee) less (employer). If something's not fair then fine negotiate, but I think people n…

Vinnyroe's anecdote at the end of his answer is EXACTLY why people negotiate what's a fair offer is almost completely (within 10's of thousands of dollars) SUBJECTIVE. I've had places where if I had mentioned a number first I'd have lost more than $10k off my salary. Honestly many times I do accept the salary offered because it was above the range I was expecting (although nowadays I'm better calibrated to my area... Well, I hope so).

If there was an objective way to determine then people and companies would be much happier not negotiating for the most part.

Re: Show me the salary!

#133

Post by protonfish » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

Mister_Snuggles wrote: post #81

protonfish wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's reasonable, but I've found that I am no longer put off by open-ended contracts. I found many companies doing this because they know their hiring practices aren't good enough to weed out posers. If you are good at your job, you have little to worry about. Besides, I've lost more jobs that were "permanent" than contract. Employer commitment is a fairy tale from the days of yore.

This is what a probation period is for. I have no issue applying to a job that is "Permanent with XX month probation period".

I agree that in a perfect world, that would be the proper way, but I also know I would have missed out on some excellent opportunities if I took that attitude.

Re: Show me the salary!

#134

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 4:55 PM UTC

serve_yay wrote: post #120

Dirlewanger wrote: post #96

And then there's the unspeakables that companies wouldn't tell someone like Jobbox: withholding salaries allows suppresses talk about it and makes it borderline-taboo to talk about in the workplace. This is the status quo for many American companies unfortunately. It's an unfortunate consequence of dealing with a highly individualistic society. You as a person are an asset and you always have to be selling yourself.…

But I see almost nothing written in this whole thread from the perspective of the person who is making more than their coworkers (or believes that to be the case). I don't want to discuss salaries! In fact, one time earlier in my career I was in a group of coworkers who all went around and said their salaries, and mine was 2x all of them, so I kept quiet. My point is just that I don't think it only benefits the emplo…

Did you keep quiet because you believed you were being paid unfairly or because you believed THEY were being paid unfairly?

If you thought they were underpaid, you were kind of doing them a disservice by keeping quiet. Knowledge of a pay disparity within a group of similar employees tends to help the negotiating power of those who are making less, but does not tend to hurt those who are making more.

Re: Show me the salary!

#135

Post by mallyvai » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 4:55 PM UTC

shanemhansen wrote: post #129

Here's a little bit of a horror story of what happens when the reverse question (engineer's current salary) is asked and answered honestly. Disclosure of current salary ultimately hurts both parties. I was once offered a position by a certain well known Las Vegas based ecommerce company while I was living in Salt Lake and working in Park City. They asked my current salary and I told them (like a chump). When my offer…

This is exactly the right answer - if multiple rounds of deflection fail to work then you should state, "I expect a competitive offer to be $X".

Re: Show me the salary!

#136

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 4:59 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #130

ryandrake wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are good rules when the going is good. But you need to be flexible when times are bad. In technology (and probably many other industries), it's feast and famine. Whilst today, a good engineer can expect to see recruiters spamming them weekly or even daily, this wasn't the case in, say, 2001-4, 2008-9. Your rules also seem to be for people who already have jobs. When you're unemployed, your pickiness factor has…

When you're unemployed, your pickiness factor has to be zero--any job is better than no job. This is true only if you also have nothing put away from the good times to cover your essential living costs for a while and give you a safety margin. Assuming you do -- and you need a very, very good reason not to in this business -- then taking the first offer that comes along just because you're currently unemployed is ver…

Yea, yea.. On the Internet, everyone has a fully-stocked 12-month emergency fund (and a supermodel girlfriend). In reality, nobody does. I can tell you, as someone who's been unemployed and a month away from living in my car, you take whatever job comes along. You can fret about your "optimal strategy" and "future negotiating power" while you are enjoying your next hot meal.

Re: Show me the salary!

#137

Post by fukupayme2 » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

mallyvai wrote: post #123

fukupayme2 wrote: post #55

A big problem here in London is the willingness of big firms, especially financial ones to pay market rate in all conditions. An example: I work at an IB, doing Python/Quant development. We are presented with two candidates to interview. Candidate 1 is ok, has a year or two of Python but otherwise mostly Java background. Did so-so in the algo and numerical discussions, was ok in the problem solving categories. He was…

Market rates are complicated, and it's not unusual for employers to do this. For high-value people, the big guys (Google, Amazon, Microsoft) can and will match crazy high counteroffer numbers a lot of the time. It sucks, and this leads to the exact scenario you're describing. The justification these places use is that, "We don't ever want to lose good people simply because of money." The flip side of this is that it'…

For financial IT in London specifically, I would always advise people to state you have multiple interviews and roles on the go, and do so, so that if you are made an offer, get it in writing, even though then pretend it is an time limited offer, and then get at least one or two rounds of counter offer. And don't feel bad about doing it. They will squeal a bit, but it is just business at the end of the day. And yes, do job hop from time to time or else your pay will stagnate. A good rule of thumb is to interview every three to six months to establish your market potential and look at the difference on your current role.

Re: Show me the salary!

#138

Post by ovulator » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 5:04 PM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #39

leeoniya wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, i've had major issues with this. i know what i will and will not accept and if my number is not something the employer is willing to pay, that should be the first thing discussed so we don't waste each other's time. it's very annoying to be dragged through interviews for what turns out to be a laughable offer at the end.

once it happened worse to me, I specified my minimum acceptable price at the first contact, went trough three interviews, then they offered 87% of what I asked.

Of course they did, that is how negotiation works. You don't go up from the sticker price.

You don't say what the minimum you will work for is, you tell them what your other offers are, then you have an auction and they have to bid up.

Re: Show me the salary!

#139

Post by randomdata » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 5:05 PM UTC

serve_yay wrote: post #32

It could backfire - if I saw a salary stated on a job ad, I would consider it firm. So it it was too low I wouldn't even consider applying, when perhaps they would have been willing to work something out with me if I did.

The figure need not be set in stone. If they find nobody responds, they can keep upping the price until they get what they are looking for. If they do find someone happy to work for them at that lower level, then everyone wins.

As a farmer, this is pretty much how we sell our crops in most cases. The buyer posts how much he is willing to pay, and if I like what I see, I make the deal. If I don't, I wait and hope the price goes up to something that matches my expectations. Sometimes someone else will sell for less and that never happens.

Re: Show me the salary!

#140

Post by Silhouette » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #136

Silhouette wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're unemployed, your pickiness factor has to be zero--any job is better than no job. This is true only if you also have nothing put away from the good times to cover your essential living costs for a while and give you a safety margin. Assuming you do -- and you need a very, very good reason not to in this business -- then taking the first offer that comes along just because you're currently unemployed is ver…

Yea, yea.. On the Internet, everyone has a fully-stocked 12-month emergency fund (and a supermodel girlfriend). In reality, nobody does. I can tell you, as someone who's been unemployed and a month away from living in my car, you take whatever job comes along. You can fret about your "optimal strategy" and "future negotiating power" while you are enjoying your next hot meal.

In reality, nobody does.

I'm sorry for the situation you found yourself in, but that isn't remotely true. I've been working independently for a while, and I've sometimes discussed how much is worth putting somewhere safe in the current economic climate with friends in broadly similar positions. The idea that anyone wouldn't do that was universally regarded as crazy.

Of course there might be exceptions. If you're starting your first business and you're bootstrapping, you might choose to accept a much higher level of risk than most normal employees ever would in order to maximise your chance of eventual success. (I know reasonable people who would disagree with even this, but there is at least a decent argument in its favour.) If you have a dependent with a serious medical problem and you need the money to fund treatment, you do what you have to do.

But if you're working in IT, in a good period, and you really are living month-to-month without either building up an emergency fund or having a clear reason to be spending everything you've got on something that is more important to you, I'd recommend consulting a good financial advisor and working out a budget so you can live within your means and better protect yourself before the next down period in the industry.