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Windows SSL Interception Gone Wild

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Re: Windows SSL Interception Gone Wild

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing of UKUSA and Five Eyes, knowing that they share intelligence on parties OUTSIDE the member states , and knowing that they are providing one another with intelligence on each other's citizens and residents are different things. Your Wikipedia article link doesn't directly address this. It points to several other documents though: A 2000 ZDNet article by Duncan Campbell: http://www.zdnet.com/article/echelon-wor…

This article linked from Wikipedia has a Canadian stating that the Brits asked them to monitor British citizens and US lawmakers worrying that it was being used to spy on US citizens: http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/05/cyber/articles/27n... I guess widespread speculation that avoiding domestic surveillance laws is one of the things done with the system isn't the same as knowing that it is going on, but my poin…

Fair point. And I do appreciate the additional information and links.

From your NY Times article (published May 27, 1999):

Until last Sunday, no government or intelligence agency from the member states had openly admitted to the existence of the UKUSA Agreement or Echelon.

The mutual surveillance / legal evasion possibility appears to be suspected but not demonstrated. Again as with much else, what Snowden's done is to specifically document such activity. Which is of and by itself a material distinction.

European Parliament officials have also expressed concern about the use of Echelon to gather economic intelligence for participating nations.

And:

While few dispute the necessity of a system like Echelon to apprehend foreign spies, drug traffickers and terrorists, many are concerned that the system COULD be abused to collect economic and political information.

(All-caps emphasis added -- minimal HN formatting options have their drawbacks.)

So, I'll maintain that the documentation of such abuse is a New Thing.

Re: Windows SSL Interception Gone Wild

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chrome has a rather sophisticated mechanism for detecting MITM attacks Which obviously didn't work here, as Chrome was one of the most affected targets. Firefox on the other hand, was more or less absent altogether. I know which browser I will trust.

Superfish will infect Fx also, it's just that Lenovo didn't pre-install Fx and the installer only runs once.

If you install superfish and then chrome, you will be affected. If you install superfish, then Firefox, you won't.

Thus Firefox is the more secure browser.

Re: Windows SSL Interception Gone Wild

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wal-Mart sold Linux machines at one time, and maybe still does. Dell does. A lot of small suppliers do (because they don't get such big OEM discounts on Windows and don't have high-volume automated production lines). But the real problem is that one "support incident" eats the profit from about five sales, or more. If you think there's a market for Linux PCs, you can always set up a company to sell them. You wouldn't…

>Dell does. Dell used to. I just contacted Dell sales and according to "Hazel" they do not offer any non-Windows OS for consumer products nor will they sell a system sans-OS. >But the real problem is that one "support incident" eats the profit from about five sales, or more. Meh, there is a lot of room for argument here. I think the real problem, after MS' many anti-competitive shenanigans is that most people just th…

> Meh, there is a lot of room for argument here.

Not really. I got my info from senior managers at some of the (very large, Taiwanese) companies concerned.

> I think the real problem, after MS' many anti-competitive shenanigans is that most people just think MS Windows is synonymous with "computer".

Microsoft has never been accused or taken to court for any "anti-competitive shenanigans" re the success of Windows, only for ways it tried to exploit that success.

> Those who really want a Linux PC will just buy the hardware they want and install it themselves.

Yes, exactly. And they will install whichever of the 157 versions they prefer. These are among the reasons why it's hard to make a profit selling Linux PCs.

Re: Windows SSL Interception Gone Wild

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just that the OEMs wouldn't like it. The US DoJ sued Microsoft (and tried to break it up) to prevent it from having any control over what they do. In fact, Microsoft doesn't know what OEMs are installing as "Windows" unless it goes out and buys one of their PCs. Otherwise, some OEMs have tried installing versions of Linux, with negative financial results. A few are still trying. The real problems are selling…

> Otherwise, some OEMs have tried installing versions of Linux, with negative financial results. A few are still trying. The real problems are selling and supporting them. The problem seems to be that they're always trying to put them on budget machines, which is completely the wrong market. It's chasing the customers who pinch the last penny and you're never going to make any money from them regardless. Meanwhile th…

You are exactly right on both counts.

The main attempt to sell Linux to end users was the use of different versions on netbooks, which were mainly bought on price by relatively clueless users.

I talked to one supplier about the obvious cost-of-Linux-support problem at their launch. We won't do support, they said, it will be like an appliance: we'll just reset to factory condition.

You can imagine how that turned out...

Re: Windows SSL Interception Gone Wild

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Dell does. Dell used to. I just contacted Dell sales and according to "Hazel" they do not offer any non-Windows OS for consumer products nor will they sell a system sans-OS. >But the real problem is that one "support incident" eats the profit from about five sales, or more. Meh, there is a lot of room for argument here. I think the real problem, after MS' many anti-competitive shenanigans is that most people just th…

> Meh, there is a lot of room for argument here. Not really. I got my info from senior managers at some of the (very large, Taiwanese) companies concerned. > I think the real problem, after MS' many anti-competitive shenanigans is that most people just think MS Windows is synonymous with "computer". Microsoft has never been accused or taken to court for any "anti-competitive shenanigans" re the success of Windows, on…

>Not really. I got my info from senior managers at some of the (very large, Taiwanese) companies concerned.

Oh. Why didn't you tell me that you had a real authoritative source? /s

>Microsoft has never been accused or taken to court

Microsoft's historical business practices WRT both Apple and Linux are well documented. Lawyers have made whole careers work generated. There is no need to hash this out for the billion +1th time.

>These are among the reasons why it's h...

I don't know who you think you're arguing with. I haven't asked you for seed money. I've not tried to convince you to go into business selling PC's.

Re: Windows SSL Interception Gone Wild

#136
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Dell does. Dell used to. I just contacted Dell sales and according to "Hazel" they do not offer any non-Windows OS for consumer products nor will they sell a system sans-OS. >But the real problem is that one "support incident" eats the profit from about five sales, or more. Meh, there is a lot of room for argument here. I think the real problem, after MS' many anti-competitive shenanigans is that most people just th…

> Dell used to. I just contacted Dell sales and according to "Hazel" they do not offer any non-Windows OS for consumer products nor will they sell a system sans-OS. They do, it's called "Project Sputnik". It's targeted at developers though, which is a market that clearly makes sense, as AnthonyMouse pointed out. http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-lapt... The XPS 13 review yesterday was interestin…

Thanks for the links. I confined my statement to consumer products, so that's still true. I am a little disappointed that "Hazel" didn't mention this one, because I specifically asked about XPS series laptops, and then asked if there were any other.

These days I have a purchasing department that impedes my purchases, so as long as the crap they give me isn't too bad I just let it be.

Re: Windows SSL Interception Gone Wild

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meh, there is a lot of room for argument here. Not really. I got my info from senior managers at some of the (very large, Taiwanese) companies concerned. > I think the real problem, after MS' many anti-competitive shenanigans is that most people just think MS Windows is synonymous with "computer". Microsoft has never been accused or taken to court for any "anti-competitive shenanigans" re the success of Windows, on…

>Not really. I got my info from senior managers at some of the (very large, Taiwanese) companies concerned. Oh. Why didn't you tell me that you had a real authoritative source? /s >Microsoft has never been accused or taken to court Microsoft's historical business practices WRT both Apple and Linux are well documented. Lawyers have made whole careers work generated. There is no need to hash this out for the billion +1…

> Oh. Why didn't you tell me that you had a real authoritative source? /s

Sorry, reality intruded. I should have known you'd find that a problem. However, you could get a clue from the fact that most companies who have tried to sell Linux have either stopped or gone bust, or do it on a very small number of systems. This is not because they are against making a profit.

> Microsoft's historical business practices WRT both Apple and Linux are well documented.

Up to a point. But most of the inexpert comment I see is badly informed and usually wrong. Still, who reads documentation?

> I don't know who you think you're arguing with

My mistake, I didn't know I was arguing....

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