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What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

paulgraham.com

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Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#131

Post by JoshTriplett »

dxbydt wrote: post #38

This excerpt - "what he really liked was solving problems. The text of each chapter was just some advice about solving them. He said that as soon as he got a new textbook he'd immediately work out all the problems—to the slight annoyance of his teacher, since the class was supposed to work through the book gradually." is literally me. I did that. Every year at my school I did exactly that. Once I actually turned in m…

> Once I actually turned in my solutions and my math teacher was quite upset because she didn't know what I'd do for the rest of the year in her class.

Obvious answer: move to the next class. Repeat as desired.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#133

Post by gbog »

eutectic wrote: post #68
dxbydt wrote: post #38

This excerpt - "what he really liked was solving problems. The text of each chapter was just some advice about solving them. He said that as soon as he got a new textbook he'd immediately work out all the problems—to the slight annoyance of his teacher, since the class was supposed to work through the book gradually." is literally me. I did that. Every year at my school I did exactly that. Once I actually turned in m…

I think that I have a reasonable aptitude for maths and I like solving problems, but I always felt like textbook problems more-or-less consisted of plugging the numbers into a standard template. Maybe my education was uniquely terrible but I'm surprised that there are people who can blast through textbooks and enjoy doing it.

If you know SICP, I think it's a good example of a textbook with nice problems. My math textbook in French education system were to a similar level of quality. The first two problems were usually to make sure you understood the basic of the chapter, but the others were much harder or opened new perspectives, or used very different context. It was a real pleasure to read the textbook and the problems.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#134

Post by sedachv »

phkahler wrote: post #113
sedachv wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^ This. I ended up majoring in pure mathematics as an undergraduate after finding out that applied mathematics courses had too much material to memorize after finding out that physics courses had too much material to memorize. Pure math was so much easier.

You and the person who started this thread seem to think that way. I find there is just as much to memorize in math. fields, rings, groups, and all sorts of things. Oh and those greek letters. I like math and physics and stuff but I never thought there was significantly less memorization in math. Calc 2 techniques of integration and then DiffEq seemed like a lot of special cases that had unique solutions we had to re…

> fields, rings, groups, and all sorts of things.

Each of those is just a definition and a handful (literally like 5 or 6) of axioms. If I memorized the axioms and a few key theorems I could usually derive everything else in the homework and on the exams. Most mathematical objects have very similar structure and the rest is just maps (morphisms) between them.

> Oh and those greek letters.

That's actually a very valid point. It took me a few years after graduating to realize how much myself (and I suspect many other students) are hampered by not knowing the notation well enough. Most people just assume you (and they) know what it means and never think about the actual definition and ambiguities. Even not being able to pronounce Greek letters definitely makes you less able (or at least less confident) to reason with them.

> Calc 2 techniques of integration and then DiffEq seemed like a lot of special cases that had unique solutions we had to remember.

That's the applied math part of calculus. The pure side is just "here's a compact/open/whatever set, prove for any point in it this property holds." Then you find out no one cares about either and it's all just numerical algorithms.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#135

Post by TeMPOraL »

zippergz wrote: post #32

I found something that didn't feel like work, turned it into my career, and then realized that when there are real business outcomes riding on it, suddenly it feels like work. To the point that I now don't even like doing it as a hobby.

Totally. I'm a very productive programmer as long as I do my hobby projects, random hacks, fun things, hackatons or work that I have no personal stake in. But whenever I have to work, my productivity drops to literally 1/10 - 1/100th of the normal level and I often feel axious and sick. This is completely absurd - sometimes I get more done in one hour on a bus for a side project than through entire week for work.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#136

Post by TeMPOraL »

stegosaurus wrote: post #75

What if the idea of work itself is what you dislike? There are plenty of activities I can enjoy, and some, quite a few of them in fact, are profitable. Once you shoe-horn them into the power dynamic situation of a traditional job (with the bureaucracy that entails unless you're dealing with Actual People as opposed to corporations), suddenly a lot of the luster disappears. As a ridiculous example - I enjoy reading. I…

> What if the idea of work itself is what you dislike?

It's that for me, and I'd very much like to know how to handle it.

The very same task done 'just because I like to' turns from ecstatic moments of crazy productivity to total misery and physical feelings of sickness when it becomes a job or an obligation. And it's not even on a System2 level. I'd really like to like work. I just can't force my body and subconsciousness to like it.

It keeps dragging me down not only financially but emotionally. It's very destructive to my feeling of self-worth to see how given all the skills I acquired through 13 years of coding I still can't get myself to be productive at work, to get peanuts while during free time I'm mentoring inexperienced programmers who earn 3 times as much as me.

(not that I care that much about the money - but I have people depending on my support and it'd be nice to stop worrying about cashflow for at least a moment)

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#138

Post by paulvs »

dragonwriter wrote: post #114
paulvs wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming, maths & science, etc. are acquired tastes. Not things you can enjoy from the get-go. I think many friends and family of mine would make far better programmers than I, or great scientists, but they've never had the need to venture out of their comfort zone to try something new. The age of constant distractions and an easy lifestyle is not conducive to breaking out of the norm. The things I enjoy most took…

> Programming, maths & science, etc. are acquired tastes. Not things you can enjoy from the get-go. I dunno, I enjoyed all three from the get-go. Ballroom dance I suspected I would enjoy, but it took me a while to get to the point where it wasn't just work to do it (even though I enjoyed watching it.) I know plenty of people for whom those things are flipped. I don't think "what you can enjoy from the get-go" and "wh…

In my case, I didn't expect to enjoy learning Paraguayan traditional dancing, but it sure was fun and I'm glad I tried it. Like another poster pointed out, it's the hard work that comes first (overcoming the fear, or plugging away at the books), then comes the satisfaction. I think it must feel lonely being a great mathematician for example, knowing that everyone else has settled for less, and that only you and a few others have even a slight understanding of the universe.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#139

Post by UrMomReadsHN »

ta75757 wrote: post #42
dxbydt wrote: post #38

This excerpt - "what he really liked was solving problems. The text of each chapter was just some advice about solving them. He said that as soon as he got a new textbook he'd immediately work out all the problems—to the slight annoyance of his teacher, since the class was supposed to work through the book gradually." is literally me. I did that. Every year at my school I did exactly that. Once I actually turned in m…

As (failed) physics major, it sounds so strange to hear someone claim to be good at math but not physics. To me physics is 98% math. It's a few empirical facts from experiments and then bucketloads of math.

I enjoy math and I hate physics. :)

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#140

Post by tim333 »

ta75757 wrote: post #42
dxbydt wrote: post #38

This excerpt - "what he really liked was solving problems. The text of each chapter was just some advice about solving them. He said that as soon as he got a new textbook he'd immediately work out all the problems—to the slight annoyance of his teacher, since the class was supposed to work through the book gradually." is literally me. I did that. Every year at my school I did exactly that. Once I actually turned in m…

As (failed) physics major, it sounds so strange to hear someone claim to be good at math but not physics. To me physics is 98% math. It's a few empirical facts from experiments and then bucketloads of math.

There's a lot of physics that isn't maths - more visualising how stuff works. Feynman's quite interesting talking about it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obCjODeoLVw
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