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I Owe It All to Community College

nytimes.com

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Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#131

Post by smeyer »

danielweber wrote: post #106
smeyer wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's relevant, is it? At least where I grew up (California), community colleges tended not to have admission standards and anyone could attend. Making it easier to afford seems to imply you'll be getting people who just barely cannot pay for it now, not people who "just barely cannot get in".

Community college is already very cheap, and Pell grants often completely cover the cost if you are low income.

I still don't see your point about people who "just barely cannot get in". Most community college students did not need to do anything to get in. For the public community colleges in California, if I recall correctly, you just need to be 18 (or have a high school diploma or meet some other conditions.) Why do you think that funding community college would result in more students like the bottom 10% of those currently in community college classes?

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#132

Post by gnopgnip »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #81
romaniv wrote: post #71

I'm glad that it worked for him, but my community college was a complete waste of time with the exception of two (just two!) courses and the internship program. I think the true way forward is in replacing community colleges with certificates from online courses (with some in-person labs, probably). It's cheaper and would make for better quality of education.

Colleges as a whole should be completely replaced with something like certificates. Bachelor degrees are way too expensive for what they provide. The vast majority of people would be much better off with focused, relevant learning and skills. I went to a CC as well, fantastically cost-effective, I had some real gems for teachers, but I can think of at least one who had no business teaching anything. If we make CC fre…

There is a real societal value to liberal arts classes and other requirements beyond classes directly related to the job you are training for. Having a capacity to continue learning, skillful communication, and the ability to think for yourself are integral to your future success, but are often not covered by more technical classes.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#133

Post by jdhawk »

nether wrote: post #118
jdhawk wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all community colleges are the same. If you live in close proximity to universities with high academic standards, most of the professors are going to be recent graduates of those programs, or educators picking up extra cash and some experience teaching at CC. BFE Community College will not have the same level of academic excellence.

I've heard some profs at Santa Monica College also teach at USC.

Sure, Austin Community College is littered with University of Texas people.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#134

Post by danielweber »

methehack wrote: post #124
danielweber wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we just buy everything that is cheaper than the Iraq war, we will very soon be bankrupt.

The wars in the middle east are not likely to make us more money than the cost. This is. It's an investment, like roads. It grows the economy. This is more or less considered a fact in macroeconomics. There are two very comparable super-relevant historical precedents: public high school education (yes that was someone's idea too) and the GI Bill. Both of these social programs (as they would be called today) have made…

This is more or less considered a fact in macroeconomics

Oh, good.

What does economics say about who captures the benefit of education?

What's the rate of return on successful graduation from community college? (Hint: check Schenk Matsuyama 2010.)

What is the graduation rate from community college? (And isn't that number a lot lower than you expected?)

Now, given the fraction of benefits that is privately captured, and the fact that some fraction of students are delaying earnings while pursuing a degree, what return do you expect to the government?

Also, do you imagine there being any limit on magically pouring money into "education" and growing an economy? Why is it that no other nation on Earth spends as much money on education as the US does? [1] Why are they all leaving money on the table? In the particular case of post-secondary education, the US is almost 50% ahead of its next closest competitor in terms of spending per student. What is wrong with all those other countries? Have you not told them this is a macroeconomic fact?

[1] The US is at the top, maybe tied with Switzerland, in pure dollars spent per student. http://www.oecd.org/education/skills-beyond-school/48630868....

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#135

Post by elberto34 »

I have found that the best math teachers were from community college. One teacher explained the solution to a calculus problem I had developed out of curiosity , and it wasn't even on the curriculum. He didn't have to do that, but I appreciated he did

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#136

Post by drawkbox »

The community college effort is a worthy one. With a renewed focus on it, it may help make tuition higher up more competitive. It may also make the freshman/sophomore level basic classes much better.

I know part of this is to battle rising student loans. Loans will be much cheaper if they can have community college as an option to start with that the government won't have to pay higher tuition for. It is actually very smart in solving the student loan issue, the balance of lower tuition and not having to pay for the first 1-2 years of university tuition will be very big.

I think some kids need something to go to right out of high school if noone was there to help them be serious at school. It is also badly needed for adults that might need a change of career or some path forward.

We need to do this and require 1Gbps internet across the US if we want to compete and care about our own infrastructure and people. We need to do this before we fund another war.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#137

Post by saraid216 »

jeangenie wrote: post #94
snake_plissken wrote: post #56

The initial proposal from The President costs $60 billion over ten years or $6 billion per year. For some perspective, conservative estimates have put the cost of the war in Iraq at $500 million a day. This proposal would cost 72 days of war. It's difficult to comprehend how our politicians could have any issues supporting such an initiative.

What this says to me is that we should immediately stop pouring money into conflagrations overseas.

But then our gasoline prices would go up.

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#138

Post by danielweber »

remarkEon wrote: post #126
aaron-lebo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, potential. It will also further devalue high school diplomas as well as make good high schools less of a priority across the nation (everyone is going to CC anyway, right?). It probably makes bachelor's degrees even more of a requirement for decent jobs, making people more likely to take on student loans and spend their 20 and 30s paying them back for a piece of paper, restricting their mobility and options. Thr…

So your problem is with the paper? Agree that the "system" is "broken", but I think describing college as just a "piece of paper" really over-simplifies the problem. Do we not need some way of certifying skill sets? And I'm unconvinced that what you would see would actually be a devaluing of high school diplomas. Potentially, we'd just view high school how we view elementary school now - something everyone assumes yo…

Do we not need some way of certifying skill sets?

College is a HORRIBLE way to "certify skill sets." It's the most anti-liberal certification I can imagine: it measures how long you can afford to go without an income. One big result of giving college educations to a bunch of people that didn't need them is the credentialism race. Why does an office manager need a college degree when it didn't 40 years ago? Because now there are enough job candidates out there with a college degree that it becomes an easy (and legal[1]) way to filter out people who aren't smart enough for college. If you are one of those who are smart enough for college, this sounds great, but it leaves the people who can't cut college material up a creek.

[1] Griggs banned degree requirements, but no one pays attention to that

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#139

Post by jdnier »

benihana wrote: post #113
markdown wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OT: > irregardless regardless is fine.

so is irregardless. Can I ask why you take the time to correct someone when it was perfectly clear what the intent of the sentence was?

No, not really. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless

Re: I Owe It All to Community College

#140

Post by jimm »

elberto34 wrote: post #135

I have found that the best math teachers were from community college. One teacher explained the solution to a calculus problem I had developed out of curiosity , and it wasn't even on the curriculum. He didn't have to do that, but I appreciated he did

My father was a math professor at a community college. He was proud of his teaching and his students. Those students --- largely people looking to become nurses, firemen, or other professionals --- benefited from his love of teaching. He got his PhD in education during his teaching career, and even developed a game to help teach math. The game sucked, frankly, and was never released anywhere but it shows how much he cared about teaching.
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