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Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

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Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#131

Post by TillE »

ubernostrum wrote: post #103
Someone1234 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There should be a government imposed minimum seat pitch. The current distance between the back of one seat and the front of another is too small for the top 10% in terms of height of the population, disabled people, and older people. Then airlines cannot use "competition" to argue why they should make seats smaller and smaller, as all competition would have to adapt also. I don't care if they're a private business. T…

When all airlines have the same tiny seats and no alternative that isn't 5-10x more expensive, that is collusion, not competition. People like you have been saying this for a long time. Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of airline customers have been saying, much more loudly, much more consistently and with money rather than words (i.e., in how they book and what fares they book) that all considerations other than…

> all considerations

The market has been doing a terrible job of making such considerations visible. I'd like to book a flight from city A to city B on an A380. There are two possible routes on two different carriers, and I'm happy to pay the (fairly small) premium.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to actually do that, to manually go and find the flight times and numbers that correspond to an A380, and then to find those in a search engine (either Kayak or the airlines')? Especially when there's a stopover. Both airlines have a ton of other flights on the same route, which is just noise that I have to filter through. But I'm willing to spend a couple hours doing that to book a slightly less miserable transatlantic flight.

If comfort information was readily available and visible on a flight search, people would actually be able to make that choice. But it's not, so it's not reasonable to draw the conclusion that people don't care about it. It's not easy to research the differences, to the vast majority probably don't know them.

Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#132

Post by dllthomas »

mikeash wrote: post #130
npizzolato wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that's true, that would ignore all the new fees for services you used to get for free. Some new fees you now have the pleasure of paying: - Fee to check even one bag. You used to be able to check at least one under a certain size for free. - Fee to pick reasonable seats on many flights. Those isle and window seats are available, and they can be yours for only $10! - Fee to board at a reasonable time. Otherwis…

"Fee to check even one bag" means that people traveling with small amounts of luggage can pay less. "Fee to pick reasonable seats" means that people who prefer a lower price can pay less in exchange for getting worse seats, while people who insist on better seats have to pay. "Fee to board at a reasonable time" either means that people with more carry-on luggage pay more, or it means that people who don't understand…

"people who don't understand that being on the airplane earlier doesn't make you arrive earlier pay more for no reason"

Being on the plane, where I no longer need to be paying attention, is less stressful. That's not worth a lot to me, but it's not worthless.

On the topic more generally, my biggest objection to piling on the fees after the fact is a lack of price transparency - it makes it much more difficult to compare the same thing across airlines. Of course, that's a problem we could solve with software...

Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#133

Post by zo1 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #32
spdustin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, they're not forcing anyone into anything. As much as I loathe handing over my money to airlines - an experience I sometimes have to face three times a month - they are a for-profit commercial enterprise with no requirements for how they operate beyond government-imposed ones. Want something legitimate to complain about when thinking of flying the friendly skies? Think about the airlines whining about the…

There should be a government imposed minimum seat pitch. The current distance between the back of one seat and the front of another is too small for the top 10% in terms of height of the population, disabled people, and older people. Then airlines cannot use "competition" to argue why they should make seats smaller and smaller, as all competition would have to adapt also. I don't care if they're a private business. T…

>"When all airlines have the same tiny seats and no alternative that isn't 5-10x more expensive, that is collusion, not competition."

You should have a look at the term Public Cartel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel#Private_vs_public_cartel

Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#134

Post by mikeash »

michaelochurch wrote: post #12
johnlabaptise wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if you're only getting 1.5-2x as much space, it doesn't seem fair that you'd have to pay 10x prices" Business aren't obligated to offer you prices that you think are fair. I don't understand why people think they are. When people say something is a rip-off or unfairly priced what they really mean is that they aren't willing to pay that price for the product. What a business chooses to charge you is entirely up to th…

I don't think that it's dynamic pricing that makes people hate the airlines. It's the rash of bad-faith activity around the dynamic pricing. For example, decreasing legroom and forcing disabled people into business class tickets they wouldn't have needed, were it 20 years ago when coach seats had enough room, is bad-faith activity. Likewise, this "boarding group" nonsense where "Group 5" means you'll have no overhead…

Non-transferability is the only one on your list that upsets me. That's some annoying crap.

But the rest, I find no fault in. I doubt that disabled people really get forced into a business class ticket. Buy a regular ticket and get on the plane. If you can't use a normal seat, not your problem, get the airline to figure it out. I'm pretty sure that kicking you off the flight when you have a ticket just because you're disabled would violate the law pretty hard.

The more bags you have, the more you'll pay, whether it's for checking them in or for earlier boarding, or paying with time by getting your bags afterwards. I have no problem with people who use more paying more. If I bring no luggage, why should I pay the same as somebody who brings a bunch?

Plenty of places have tiered access to services, and airports have plenty of places to sit and eat and drink, so I don't see the big deal with airport lounge access. I've never actually been in one so maybe they're way nicer than I give them credit for.

I don't see how this stuff is either "dishonest" or "bad faith." "Dishonest" to me would be the time a flight was hours late even though the status board continued to say it was leaving on time. "Bad faith" to me would be the time my flight was canceled because of SARS and no effort was made to inform me before I showed up at the airport to discover nobody at the check-in counters. Thankfully, these don't happen too often.

Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#135

Post by shampine »

jusben1369 wrote: post #94
shampine wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just looked at round trip tickets LAX->RDU for $329 on a direct flight. Flying is cheap.

How far ahead and what days are you traveling and how many days apart is your start and return trip. I fly RDU -> SFO regularly. If I'm 21 days out and my trip is 3 days or more I can get it for $500 - $600. If I reduce it to 2 nights it goes up to nearly $1000. So "cheap" tickets still exist but they're much harder to find than they used to be.

This was for mid january, so about 4 weeks out. Leaving on a Friday and returning on Monday.

Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#136

Post by mikeash »

dllthomas wrote: post #132
mikeash wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fee to check even one bag" means that people traveling with small amounts of luggage can pay less. "Fee to pick reasonable seats" means that people who prefer a lower price can pay less in exchange for getting worse seats, while people who insist on better seats have to pay. "Fee to board at a reasonable time" either means that people with more carry-on luggage pay more, or it means that people who don't understand…

"people who don't understand that being on the airplane earlier doesn't make you arrive earlier pay more for no reason" Being on the plane, where I no longer need to be paying attention, is less stressful. That's not worth a lot to me, but it's not worthless. On the topic more generally, my biggest objection to piling on the fees after the fact is a lack of price transparency - it makes it much more difficult to comp…

Well then if it's worth something to you then it should be worth paying for.

Price transparency is a problem, but not a huge one in my own experience (yours may, of course, vary). Airlines are rarely close enough in price for things like baggage fees to tip the scales, and when they are it's not too hard to see just what their policies are.

Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#137

Post by zo1 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #67
ElComradio wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then what happens is you effectively impose a surcharge on the 90% of the population who do not need a larger seat pitch, which hardly seems fair either. You don't have competition on seat pitch because there are not enough people willing to pay the increase for the comfort to sustain an airline.

Older people and disabled people make up a measured percentage as well. So less than 90%. Additionally everyone benefits from more seat pitch, even if just to allow them to more easily use things like a laptop in economy (which is not viable now if the person in front of you reclines fully). > You don't have competition on seat pitch because there are not enough people willing to pay the increase for the comfort to s…

>"It has nothing to do with "comfort." It isn't a luxury feature in the same vein as a complementary back massage, hot flannel, or free alcoholic drink. It is what people need so they aren't in physical pain for the duration of the flight."

I'm not in "physical pain" from the seats as they currently are. The key qualifier that you should add is "some" and replace "need" with "want", perhaps even "feel is necessary". Neither of which apply to me. I neither want more space, nor do I feel it is necessary for me in any way, hence why I suggested you change your view on the matter by adding the qualifier "some".

Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#138

Post by mikeash »

Someone1234 wrote: post #32
spdustin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, they're not forcing anyone into anything. As much as I loathe handing over my money to airlines - an experience I sometimes have to face three times a month - they are a for-profit commercial enterprise with no requirements for how they operate beyond government-imposed ones. Want something legitimate to complain about when thinking of flying the friendly skies? Think about the airlines whining about the…

There should be a government imposed minimum seat pitch. The current distance between the back of one seat and the front of another is too small for the top 10% in terms of height of the population, disabled people, and older people. Then airlines cannot use "competition" to argue why they should make seats smaller and smaller, as all competition would have to adapt also. I don't care if they're a private business. T…

Many airlines offer seats with a few inches more legroom for a modest increase in price. If you want more room, pay for it. Despite your protest to the contrary, you can.

Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#139

Post by mikeash »

Someone1234 wrote: post #56
thaumasiotes wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you can weigh the apple yourself on the scales that occur all throughout the produce section... but yeah, I'd be surprised to see a flat rate for fruit by species no matter the size. Fruit is sold by weight, not count, in China too.

That wasn't their point. In most of the world if a product's price tag says X then you pay exactly X at the register (e.g. £2 sandwich costs exactly £2 in cash, you hand then exactly £2 and leave). In the US that is not the case. Almost everything has a "hidden fee." You go buy a $2 sandwich but pay $2 + 6% ($2.12), if you get food in a restaurant you pay $price + 15-20%, an advertised $30/month cell phone plan is ac…

I hope that was their point, because if "it's too hard to calculate tax yourself" was the point, it's a bad point, especially in the modern era of smartphones.

Re: Air Fares 101 – Why do fares change all the time?

#140

Post by mikeash »

alexivanovs wrote: post #77

This is a great piece, definitely, but the question I have, do you - Americans - consider $500 a fair/reasonable amount of money to pay for a plane ticket? (I even had to lookup the average salary in the USA) I'm from Europe myself, and it usually costs us anywhere from $40 to $150 to travel anywhere in Europe, though the prices do go up if you want to go to a place such as China, Thailand, or even India. But then ag…

What's "a plane ticket"?

I live near Washington, DC. If I fly to, say, New York, then $500 would be outrageous. I'd expect to pay $100-200 roundtrip for that, depending. It's about an hour's flight.

If I fly to Miami, I'd expect to pay $200-300. That's about two hours.

If I fly to San Francisco, then $500 becomes a reasonable price. That's a six hour flight.

It makes no sense to talk about "a plane ticket" in isolation. From where to where? How far?

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