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The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

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Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#131

Post by cromwellian »

Yoric wrote: post #115
cromwellian wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The filesystem API was also nixed, so now people take to implementing fake filesystems on IndexDB, and implementing fake-SQL on top of IndexDB. On top of that, IndexDB performance isn't as great as it should be. With something like SQLite, I think it's fine to take a super mature platform and retroactively extract a specification from it (while 99% of the people just keep the original implementation), than to start w…

Well, the FileSystem API is still being worked on. Just quite different from what Chrome implemented (which was very Unix-centric, iirc).

Well, that's good to hear. My concern is, we need APIs that are predictable, straightforward, and easy to use for devs to create offline web apps. Right now, it's quite difficult, and hence hardly anyone does it. ServiceWorker may help a lot with one part of the equation, but it doesn't fix up the persistent storage story of the Web.

I find the IndexDB API maddening to use personally.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#132

Post by gohrt »

justcommenting wrote: post #102
kisielk wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem? The users can just download the same browser if they're really interested in the additional functionality.

Instead of working to ensure that my parents' computer running Windows 3.1 shipped with a C compiler by default a few decades ago, people inside Microsoft and Borland were probably thinking the same thing. This line of thinking is basically the reason I had to wait a few more years until I could buy my own computer that could run Linux as a teenager. For lots of people, the world is a very different place now, but ju…

You are comparing "Go to the store and buy a box of 10 floppy disks to bring home and install" to "click a button on a website"

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#133

Post by dwild »

wcummings wrote: post #80
daigoba66 wrote: post #25

So I'm actually a fan of leaving dev tools installed and available in a normal user's web browser; whether it's IE, Chrome, FireFox, or whatever. If a user is reporting some bug or issue that's difficult to reproduce, I like being able to just hit F12 _on their computer_ and diagnose and debug. Sometimes I can guide the user, sometimes I do it remotely. Having the ability to debug software like that is phenomenal.

There have been some phishing attacks that relied on users accessing the dev tools.

How?

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#134

Post by tn13 »

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

I dont think this is an "alternative" to using usual browsers for development and testing. This is an additional tool. There are vast number of use cases where such developer focused browser can be useful.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#135

Post by dwild »

lojack wrote: post #126
jawerty wrote: post #118

I'm still on the fence about having separate browsers for developers. It sounds nice as a concept but when I think about it more it seems like a disaster waiting to happen. For instance, when I want to debug my website I go to the dev tools within the browser I'm viewing because I know that my users are viewing the same browser (typically). Having an entirely different developer browsers makes the debugging experienc…

I completely agree that we want to view what our users are seeing, but as a counterpoint, that isn't even necessarily possible in any mainstream browser. We still have to do the majority of our development in our primary browser of choice and then load up Chrome, Firefox, IE, Opera, etc to see what the rest of the world sees. I think it would be a mistake to completely remove the developer tools from the non-develope…

You can't compare that. Chrome, Firefox, IE, Opera, etc all try to do the same stuff, they have the same goal and want to do the same. A developer version of a browser won't have that goal, it's goal is to do something else... it will do it differently.

One of the PM did a comment and gave as an example that they will block self-xss on Firefox, which won't be blocked on the developer version. It won't affect much but you can already see how it's affected. You will be able to run something on a browser but won't be able to do the same on another.

I seriously don't see why we need a developer version of a browser, except removing developer stuff from the real browser and/or adding different support (which will give you issue when you will move to a real browser).

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#136

Post by Joeri »

hrktb wrote: post #75
justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

I understand the point, but I think there is a reality where developing and actually experiencing the product can be fundamentally different. For instance the security model for a browser should be ultra tight and protect the user from the site, but as a developer I'd want to access and modify my files directly through the inspector panel. Another example would be the use of cache, where I want the minimum possible r…

I don't quite see it that way.

> For instance the security model for a browser should be ultra tight and protect the user from the site, but as a developer I'd want to access and modify my files directly through the inspector panel.

I don't see any inherent conflict between preventing sites from having access to the local filesystem, while having powerful local filesystem access from the browser's integrated devtools. One does not exclude the other.

> Another example would be the use of cache, where I want the minimum possible retention while a user would want the opposite.

Caching rules should be managed on the server, not the client. Properly configured servers/applications never need anyone to clear their caches explicitly. I don't see why you would need a special cache-less mode in the browser if you've set up your servers correctly.

In my view developer modes (in browser or framework) are counterproductive because they create discrepancies between how your users experience your site or app and how you experience it. Your browser should have the exact same app experience as the one your users use, so it shouldn't have any special developer-mode behavior. That doesn't mean you don't need powerful inspection tools, just that those tools should be built around that standard experience instead of altering it.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#137

Post by gpmcadam »

jblok wrote: post #3

This is like one of those startup websites/videos that tells you absolutely nothing about what they are doing.

It did seem odd to me that Mozilla would create a "trailer" for a web development debugging app. I didn't see the point.

Then I looked back at the comment thread and can see it has 400+ karma right now. So I suppose it worked.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#138

Post by Gmo »

Nyubis wrote: post #64
tjdetwiler wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better, here's what I get: http://i.imgur.com/QCyCMDH.png

http://html5zombo.com/ Welcome to the future!

Wow, I am both happy and sad.

Happy because I always wished for an html 5 version, sad because I wish I had done it myself

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#139

Post by snlacks »

callahad wrote: post #77
snlacks wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would probably start the trend of the dev features being reduced in regular browsers, I'd guess. But you're right no one is taking it away yet.

Why would any browser vendor have an incentive to remove or restrict developer features in released browsers?

Funny story came to mind: You ever have a client accidentally hit F12, then tell your boss that your product was broken because there was a weird thing taking up half the screen?

Seriously: My guess would be download size, performance, maintenance. Especially with Moz aiming to target super cheap hardware with their OS.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#140

Post by swift »

dwild wrote: post #133
wcummings wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been some phishing attacks that relied on users accessing the dev tools.

How?

Generally by asking them to paste code into the JavaScript console. Here's an example:

http://sdpcfix.com/security-alerts/facebook-scam-helps-trick...

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