Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America • Hacker News Board

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#131

Post by phaemon » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:38 PM UTC

jwecker wrote: post #124

phaemon wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hardly "glossed over". It's brought up every time metric/imperial is discussed and it never makes any sense. Standard lengths for timber are things like 240cm or 360cm. There is no difficulty dividing them into thirds, or quarters, or fifths, or sixths.

Give 240cm or 360cm a name (like STL for "standard-timber-length", 1 stl = 240 cm) and you're effectively doing the exact same thing as the imperial system. Then it's just a popularity contest (which is fine and appropriate and metric wins except for wrt time) but at least conceding the fact that base-10 scaling of units is not intrinsically superior for all units & situations. Edit: If the argument is that metric is…

I'm afraid your argument is circular.

You're claiming that the ability to divide evenly is an intrinsic quality of Imperial, and then when I point out that actually it can be done in any measurement system (including metric), you claim that this makes metric like Imperial, because...well, because dividing evenly is a property of Imperial.

Unless you're suggesting that timber should only be available by 1 inch, 1 foot and 1 yard measurements in the US and by 1 cm, 1 meter, ermm...I kilometer(?) in other countries?

Edit: I didn't claim metric was better at all (it is, but I didn't claim it!). You claimed that Imperial was better for dividing up lengths of timber. I explained why it wasn't.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#132

Post by _ZeD_ » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:38 PM UTC

bronson wrote: post #122

phaemon wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hardly "glossed over". It's brought up every time metric/imperial is discussed and it never makes any sense. Standard lengths for timber are things like 240cm or 360cm. There is no difficulty dividing them into thirds, or quarters, or fifths, or sixths.

You think that working in hundreds of centimeters is easier?? I guess the system one first learns is the system that feels easiest.

You miss the base-10 point: you can switch in zero time from 240cm to 2.4m and vice-versa, as you can switch in zero time from $2,40 to ¢240 when you expect ¢60 in return. And you can totally ignore the "2", and focus on the "40" part, if you care about the precision, in zero time, and switch back to a global view.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#133

Post by hatandsocks » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:43 PM UTC

peterkelly wrote: post #64

raldi wrote: post #6

I wish the article had touched on temperature systems; I feel like Celsius is metric at its weakest. Farenheit has beautiful bands: 0's: So cold you have trouble doing anything and just want to warm up immediately 10's: Wear a ski jacket with hat and scarf and gloves 20's: Wear a ski jacket and hat 30's: Wear a ski jacket but leave it open 40's: Wear a wool overcoat 50's: Wear a heavy jacket 60's: Wear a light jacket…

Celsius... 0: Freezing point of water 100: Boiling point of water A lot more precise than the rationale you proposed.

> 100: Boiling point of water

Nope! Boiling point of water at 760 Torr. In contrast, Fahrenheit uses a frigorific 1:1:1 mixture of water, ice and ammonium chloride as the second reference point, which does not depend on ambient pressure.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#134

Post by chrismcb » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:46 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #52

raldi wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I suggested on a parallel reply, could you say a bit more about why you feel it makes sense, perhaps with a chart like the one I wrote up?

All natural extremes fit within +100 and -100 beautifully. 110 - sauna is too hot 100 - water boils in one atmosphere 50 - desert hot (record is 56.7 °C (134.1 °F) Death Valley, California, U.S.A. 10 July 1913) 30 - hot (for a finn) 25 - nice hot 20 - use more clothes below this 0 - water freezes, ice forms on roads, lakes etc. -10 - cold but OK with good clothes -20 - this starts to be so cold were you need to prepa…

F was designed for humans, while C is apparently designed for water. Half of your list talks about what water does, or are fairly meaningless numbers to humans. While pretty much every number on the GPs list is relevant to humans. That is the big difference. In day to day life, the average human doesn't really need to know what temp water changes state. They want to know how comfortable they will be.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#135

Post by phaemon » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:49 PM UTC

bronson wrote: post #130

phaemon wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes no difference to me. If I described $2.40 as 240 cents, would you suddenly be incapable of dividing it up evenly?

Of course, but it would be a little harder, a little more to keep track of. More precision than necessary. People prefer to use dollars and not cents, don't they?

They're usually referred to as 2.4m and 3.6m if that makes it easier for you to track. I converted them to cm as I thought that would be simpler for people.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#136

Post by chrismcb » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:50 PM UTC

One of the biggest arguments for metric (other than the rest of the world uses it) has been that it is easy to convert from liters to kilometers. In your day to day life, how often do you need to convert from one thing to another? For most people, the answer is they don't. Occasionally in cooking you need to convert, other than that you rarely need to convert. So don't go and switch the system just because something people rarely do is easier. And yes there are lots of jobs that require doing conversions. Many of those jobs already use metric.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#137

Post by peterkelly » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:53 PM UTC

hatandsocks wrote: post #133

peterkelly wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Celsius... 0: Freezing point of water 100: Boiling point of water A lot more precise than the rationale you proposed.

> 100: Boiling point of water Nope! Boiling point of water at 760 Torr . In contrast, Fahrenheit uses a frigorific 1:1:1 mixture of water, ice and ammonium chloride as the second reference point, which does not depend on ambient pressure.

I stand corrected.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#138

Post by MisterBastahrd » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:55 PM UTC

chrismcb wrote: post #136

One of the biggest arguments for metric (other than the rest of the world uses it) has been that it is easy to convert from liters to kilometers. In your day to day life, how often do you need to convert from one thing to another? For most people, the answer is they don't. Occasionally in cooking you need to convert, other than that you rarely need to convert. So don't go and switch the system just because something…

Converting liters to kilometers? I need to know how to do this! How many beers is a kilometer? Gonna get my jog on.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#139

Post by merrua » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:55 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #52

raldi wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I suggested on a parallel reply, could you say a bit more about why you feel it makes sense, perhaps with a chart like the one I wrote up?

All natural extremes fit within +100 and -100 beautifully. 110 - sauna is too hot 100 - water boils in one atmosphere 50 - desert hot (record is 56.7 °C (134.1 °F) Death Valley, California, U.S.A. 10 July 1913) 30 - hot (for a finn) 25 - nice hot 20 - use more clothes below this 0 - water freezes, ice forms on roads, lakes etc. -10 - cold but OK with good clothes -20 - this starts to be so cold were you need to prepa…

This pretty good. I'd put in 40, so hot you forget it gets this hot (for northern europeans).

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#140

Post by yongjik » Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 6:56 PM UTC

chrismcb wrote: post #134

nabla9 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All natural extremes fit within +100 and -100 beautifully. 110 - sauna is too hot 100 - water boils in one atmosphere 50 - desert hot (record is 56.7 °C (134.1 °F) Death Valley, California, U.S.A. 10 July 1913) 30 - hot (for a finn) 25 - nice hot 20 - use more clothes below this 0 - water freezes, ice forms on roads, lakes etc. -10 - cold but OK with good clothes -20 - this starts to be so cold were you need to prepa…

F was designed for humans, while C is apparently designed for water. Half of your list talks about what water does, or are fairly meaningless numbers to humans. While pretty much every number on the GPs list is relevant to humans. That is the big difference. In day to day life, the average human doesn't really need to know what temp water changes state. They want to know how comfortable they will be.

I take it that you never tasted a cucumber partly frozen because your fridge went a bit overzealous...

We (and most things we eat, and all that white shitty stuff that blocks your commute in a winter day) are made mostly of water. The difference between -1C and 1C can be pretty significant, unlike the difference between -1F (fucking cold) and 1F (duh, fucking cold).

* Well, of course all of this is silly pissing match between groups of people who grew up with their favorite measure system, but anyway...