Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#131

Post by rapind » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 6:28 PM UTC

cwan wrote: post #122

rapind wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought I did explain my opinion, but yes you've stated it much more succinctly than I have. I believe the law protects people (specifically young people starting their careers) from exploitive practices. It also hurts them by penalizing non-exploitive and beneficial practices. I personally beleive the protection outweighs the potential benefits in this law, and thus agree with this law. Is this a little big brothe…

Can you provide an example where you would see a young person starting their career would find themselves worse off by accepting an unpaid internship? I presume you accept that the young person would only do so if (a) they weren't able to find a paid position, or (b) the experience they believed they could get would exceed the pay they could get elsewhere - and presumably therefore would result in future benefits?

Actually I don't think everyone starting out has those same priorities. I think many would go for the carrot, as I most likely would have if I'd been unable to find paying work fresh out of school.

If a telemarketing firm had approached me for a free internship with the promise of riches once I put in my time, I may very well have turned down paying positions at McDonald's etc. I'm not trying to say most of us are dumb coming out of school, but I do believe that the fake pot of gold is pretty appealing and that there are many ethically questionable companies who would make all kinds of promises if it would benefit their bottom line.

I think the system where these companies are forced to act at least somewhat ethically by paying a minimum wage is a good system.

I think there is and should be a line though. If you are unable to value your work properly, young or old, then maybe you simply don't deserve to make more than minimum wage. I don't think society should pay for your bad decisions beyond a certain point. However, I like that you can still at least make some sort of living, and I think the company that is benefiting from your poor decision making skills should be footing that bill, and not tax payers. It would be infuriating to pay a wellfare tax while the persons receiving the benefit of that tax are passing it on to companies where they are working for free.

A company could get an extremely discounted rate for certain services if they were able to hire free interns. Then to take it to extremes, if a publicly traded company could gain a competitive edge by doing this, then it's practically illegal for them not to.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#132

Post by bokonist » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 6:35 PM UTC

alex_c wrote: post #29

Unpaid internships are one of the biggest scams ever. You want me to work for you for free so I get "invaluable experience"? How much is my work worth to you, if you're not paying me? For that matter, how much is the experience I get, if I'm doing worthless work? You want ME to be grateful for the privilege of getting the experience of making YOU money for nothing in return? Screw YOU. Mark Cuban makes it sound like…

In every employee relationship there is:

a) a wage cost to the employer

b) a non-wage cost (supervision, office space, communication overhead) etc.

c) a benefit the worker provides to the company

Note that in general the benefit c) starts off low for an entry-level worker and grows over time with work.

If c) is equal to or less than b), then the employer cannot afford to pay that worker a wage. By creating a minimum wage or banning unpaid work, you are simply banning an employment contract in the situation where c) is less than b) plus the minimum wage.

Sure in some cases employers may suckering kids via a bait in switch. But in a lot of real cases, the internship or apprenticeship is a path upwards. By making it illegal, you are cutting people off. You have not made the kid any better off or engaged in charity. You have simply made a voluntary contract, that for whatever reason this kid thought was better than all his other options illegal. This kid will now simply have to choose a less preferred option.

I used to work at a non-profit helping to find jobs for the homeless. A lot of the people off the streets simply would not be able to produce $7 an hour worth of value to an employer. Perhaps though, they could produce $2 an hour. But that is illegal, so the pathway into the workplace is barred for these people.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#133

Post by olefoo » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 6:38 PM UTC

cwan wrote: post #64

gabrielroth wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the 13th Amendment, you don't have the right to sell yourself into slavery in the United States. That is, you can't sign a contract under which I pay your family $n and in return you work for me under conditions of slavery. Prohibitions on unpaid labor are an extension of this restriction on your freedom to enter into contract of your own free will.

How is an unpaid internship anywhere close to being slavery? The unpaid intern can walk away at any time. Further, it's the choice of the unpaid intern - not their family as to whether or not to accept the choice.

That description may apply in theory, but in practice the 'employer' wields considerable power over the relationship by how they describe their assessment of the worker.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#134

Post by rapind » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 6:48 PM UTC

cwan wrote: post #115

rapind wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some situations sure, I can agree with that. But to say it makes society tangibly worse I strongly disagree with because it assumes that all or at least most unpaid interships will benefit the internee. I don't think that's the case.

Then why would an unpaid internee stay at their position if they didn't see any value to themselves? There generally is at least some value even if it's a line item on a resume (that can have significant cumulative value)

Seriously? Have you never worked somewhere because you hoped it would pay off huge in the end, even though you had other and higher paying options?

Just because a job is attractive, doesn't mean it's going to further your career or somehow increase your value. And if you can't pay the bills while you're pursuing it, who ends up paying? Not the company who got your hours for free.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#135

Post by cdr » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 6:52 PM UTC

drhodes wrote: post #4

So call it volunteering? Surely volunteers are not illegal yet.

I volunteer for a huge corporation, along with hundreds of other people, to do things that couldn't be done if they had to pay employees. It's a hobby that has aspects of a side-job.

I don't see why it couldn't work for Cuban.

(Interestingly enough, volunteering is illegal in France, where the people that would be volunteers for this otherwise are actually employed and in a union.)

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#136

Post by akeefer » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 6:52 PM UTC

apotheon wrote: post #73

akeefer wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take a crack at justifying it. First of all, if you have a minimum wage law (which we do), it has to be enforced. Allowing people to work as "unpaid interns" is a half-assed way that corporations take to work around that law. You can argue about the efficacy of minimum wage laws, but it seems like real empirical studies (instead of just theoretical arguments) have been pretty inconclusive. And overall, the point…

> You can argue about the efficacy of minimum wage laws, but it seems like real empirical studies (instead of just theoretical arguments) have been pretty inconclusive. Absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. > And overall, the point is that you can't just let people create a massive loophole in that law by just deciding not to pay people at all. I, for one, don't have any problem with people find…

"A subtle form of class discrimination" is a far cry from "class warfare." I'm saying that, ethically speaking, unpaid internships help to further close off certain careers to people who are traditionally disadvantaged by giving opportunities to get ahead to people who are already traditionally more advantaged.

If you disagree with that logic, that's fine: just explain how I'm wrong instead of just dismissing it.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#137

Post by voidpointer » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 6:53 PM UTC

apotheon wrote: post #54

voidpointer wrote: post #51

I think the argument that interns are somehow compensated by "gaining invaluable experience" is somewhat of a strawman. Experience doesn't go away if an intern gets it. Money does and work gets done. I have seen too many people being lured into one "valuable" internship after the other. SOmeone wanted to get some work done and offered "valuable industry insights" as compensation. That is just laughable. If you need s…

1. I'm not sure you're clear on the meaning of the term "strawman". 2. An internship actually can be valuable work experience, and that job may not exist at all if it can't be unpaid.

Strawman in a sense were the party offering the unpaid internship distorts the value of the compensation through gaining experience. So the argument of the first party not being paid can be refuted by saying that compensation occurs through gaining experience.

You are right though, it's quite a stretch of the term.

What I wanted to say is that the party offering compensation through experience is, in my opinion, just trying to get free work and making it look like they are "paying" by "giving out" experience.

A person on a full-time internship should get enough to cover basic living expenses. The employer should pay (in money) what the work done is worth to them.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#138

Post by mighty » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 6:55 PM UTC

kingkongrevenge wrote: post #129

mighty wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lots of sexual partners creates epidemics of, wait for it...sexually transmitted disease. The manner in which people have sex, unless we're talking dry humping and such, has nothing to do with creating epidemics.

It certainly does. Anal sex is far more dangerous.

It does carry a higher risk of transmitting an STD from one person to another, yes. So I'm wrong to say that it has "nothing" to do with it. But in terms of epidemiology, the higher risk of transmission associated with a given form of sex is insignificant compared to having many partners. Spread, not risk of transmission, is by far the dominant factor here, even if they're not entirely separable. Sort of like the difference between scalability and performance.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#139

Post by codexon » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 7:15 PM UTC

apotheon wrote: post #88

pradocchia wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he can't employ people for a project that probably won't happen at all unless he can employ interns I find that very doubtful. Why is he even considering the project if the cost of paid interns would negate the upside?

I could speculate about that all day. Maybe it has the potential to become beneficial. Maybe it has secondary effects that would be beneficial to his sports franchise, but he can't justify the expense to shareholders. Maybe he would like to provide something for the fans because he's a fan himself. What's it to you why he wants to do it?

If it even has the potential to turn a profit, then he should foot the cost of the risk, not the interns.

To put it in terms of the startup culture of hacker news:

This is like asking entrepreneurs to work on your startup for free because there is a huge chance that the startup will be unprofitable.

However in the chance that it does become profitable, then you will not be paid in any way, and the only thing you will get out of it is a resume booster and a "chance" to work as a regular salaried employee.

See how silly this reasoning is now?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#140

Post by arghnoname » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 7:29 PM UTC

tnovelli wrote: post #117

apotheon wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What were they promised?

Ahh, good question! 3 college credits for ~250 hours. That's the incentive. One did it just for the experience, and regretted it.

And they probably paid for those college credits. A typical state school might put that at $900 bucks. Great deal huh?

The unpaid internship thing is often a scam to get people to do just the kind of work you're describing. In companies I've worked for, I've seen it done.

I saw interns manually 'cleaning' data in a way that could be entirely automated. I told my employer at the time that they'd never be able to keep up with new incoming data and it's terrible, pointless work. I also said I could automate it in about 20 hours of work. He said, "we'll put an ad in for more interns."

Young people are naive, it's part of being young. It's unscrupulous to take advantage of that. Cuban could have paid internships paying at minimum wage if he'd like. It would still be far less expensive than getting actual professionals to do that work. His real complaint should be that he can't extract any real value for that work from the marketplace, because that's where his real problem is.