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NSA targets the privacy-conscious

daserste.ndr.de

131–140 of 181 posts

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#131
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? Are you being facetious? This is so oddly specific.

It's a conservative meme that raw milk producers are being unfairly persecuted, in those circles it's supposed to be a paradigm case of the overly intrusive nanny state. In reality, there is hard epidemiological data showing that selling raw milk (edit: e.g. through the normal store channels) can lead to serious harm including deaths. So FDA bans it for interstate sales, but it's up to the state to decide how to regu…

> selling raw milk ... can lead to serious harm including deaths.

Please STOP spreading misinformation. The only two deaths from raw milk in the last 20 years were traced back to bad queso fresco. In fact, over the same time period, there were more deaths attributed to pasteurized liquid milk than to raw liquid milk[1].

It's amazing what 30 seconds of Googling can do.

[1] http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/raw-milk-news/story/outbreak...

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#132
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data with comparison to baseline too. and it is an example of a nanny state (the FDA is literally saying, we have to protect you from this) rather than acting as a licensed-milk-producer-seal issuer. It's the same nanny state issue when the FDA shut down more beneficial AIDS treatments in the 80s and 90s when the only drugs on the market, that the FDA approved of (AZT), were essentially toxic…

You could take a look at the Centre for Disease Control's page about the issue, which includes a PDF with detailed breakdown of disease outbreaks linked to raw milk: http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-index.html It's not particularly favorable to raw milk. > They should only act to say, "This is the only type of drugs or milk the FDA approves of" The same CDC report mentioned above, specifically address l…

I replied to the parent above but wanted to point you that you, too, are 'udder'ly mistaken.

http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/raw-milk-news/story/outbreak...

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... you get a arrested for having a "very high score". Considering this is PRECISELY how spam filtering works, it doesn't seem entirely irrational. Much like spam filtering, it would all come down to dialing in your filters and picking a good threshold. Hell, if the system was good enough, it could actually improve freedoms. We currently arrest many innocent people as part of the legal process (who are later exonerat…

> "it doesn't seem entirely irrational." (Yes it does...) > "It doesn't have to be perfect to be better." (Yes it does...) The problem used to be approached by presuming innocence (demanding perfection), rather than with a willingness to accept false positives (20 years ago spam filters weren't available as an analogy...). It is always possible to wrongfully judge someone, but it was never a valid or acceptable outco…

Hold on there friend. I was not suggesting we replace the judicial system with a filter. Rather arrests.

I.e., make the arrest based on the filter, then run the trial in the same old jury-of-your-peers.

Convictions should be false-positive-free. But our system would not work if arrests also needed to be 100% false-positive-free.

I'm also not advocating punishment for crimes that have not yet been committed. Rather, think of it as looking for flags for crimes that have already been committed or are in progress. For example, there are all sorts of small flags thrown by embezzlement or salami-slicing that, put together, identify the operation.

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#134
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only as good as the inputs, yes. But if it's a halfway decent filter, it will include machine learning, e.g. a Bayesian filter, and if "is Muslim" turns out to have low correspondence with actual criminal activity that input will quickly be deweighted. Or perhaps paired with other aspects- e.g., perhaps "is Muslim" is of no consequence and "Googles Jihad" is also of no consequence, but "is Muslim" && "Googles Jihad"…

> If a learning Bayesian filter targets a certain demographic, there probably IS something to it. I'm pretty sure both Bayes and Laplace would not agree with the categorization of Bayesian probability as some sort of panacea for determining truth in criminal matters.

Yes, it is just probability and not truth. But an arrest is often a "guess" with some degree of confidence, not absolute certainty. Thus is a "weight" or "probability" not perfectly applicable?

Trials & convictions is a different matter, more suited to truth-seeking.

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amplify this by 100, and welcome to Minority Report, where you get a arrested for having a "very high score". This is where the "mass surveillance" and "let's monitor everyone just in case they might do something bad" thinking inevitably ends up.

... you get a arrested for having a "very high score". Considering this is PRECISELY how spam filtering works, it doesn't seem entirely irrational. Much like spam filtering, it would all come down to dialing in your filters and picking a good threshold. Hell, if the system was good enough, it could actually improve freedoms. We currently arrest many innocent people as part of the legal process (who are later exonerat…

Then why does the system not look out for corrupt politicians, or black military budgets? Because the filters are not tuned well enough yet, as if that will ever be an objective? I'd say it's because it's not a spam filter that filters for spam.. more like a spam filter that filters out the spam of the competition, lets yours through, and kills emails warning about this. Call me paranoid, but until the big guns are primarily used to catch the big villains, this is what I see.

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#136
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you get a arrested for having a "very high score". I was thinking more in terms of automated drone strikes, but yeah for the facade of democracy arrests may be the way to go for now.

Too expensive.

Drones get more cost effective as the kill frequency increases. Economy of scale

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "it doesn't seem entirely irrational." (Yes it does...) > "It doesn't have to be perfect to be better." (Yes it does...) The problem used to be approached by presuming innocence (demanding perfection), rather than with a willingness to accept false positives (20 years ago spam filters weren't available as an analogy...). It is always possible to wrongfully judge someone, but it was never a valid or acceptable outco…

Hold on there friend. I was not suggesting we replace the judicial system with a filter. Rather arrests. I.e., make the arrest based on the filter, then run the trial in the same old jury-of-your-peers. Convictions should be false-positive-free. But our system would not work if arrests also needed to be 100% false-positive-free. I'm also not advocating punishment for crimes that have not yet been committed. Rather, t…

Granted, arrests are held to a different standard than convictions in that they merely require "probable cause" rather than proof of guilt and this lower standard does make it look like the spam filtering analogy scenario may fit - but in calculating this new "guilt probability" our spam filter is relying increasingly on the "testimony" and "facts" presented by the surveillance database itself and it is the objectiveness of this database in practice, or rather the ones accessing it, that I am directly calling into question (though I didn't elaborate above).

Unfortunately, the database cannot be trusted by virtue of its centralized nature and administration (even if that centralization is justifiable, for example to protect everyone's privacy). The hardware may be objective, but people are not - people lie cheat and steal when they can get away with it - and there are simply too few separate and competing interests to hold the small number of people with access to the database and tools accountable for their inevitably selective use of them to ensure their objective application. We have seen centralized data collected and used for private interests (and books censored, and guns regulated, and...) in the past, be they fascist governments or police protectionism (lying under oath; evidence tampering; racial "profiling"), economic fraud, etc. It is human nature to use one's control to his advantage, and it is simply too tempting for police to shoot first (detain, seize, etc), especially when it is in their interest, and ask questions later (check the database for cause; use "parallel reconstruction"; incriminating speech taken out of context).

It would be worse if that extended all the way to conviction, but it presents the same kind of problem for arrests, detainments, and searches, etc, since it is effectively the word of the administrators (who we trust not to abuse the data and tools) against the person arrested. The more centralized the data and tools become, the less we can trust them to be applied objectively without accountability.

Unfortunately, there are no checks and balances on absolute power (centralization), and so we cannot allow centralization to continue indefinitely. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely, and it is my "thesis" that arrests are not a suitable application of these tools. The risk is too great. Police already have a high level of responsibility (the authority, training, and tools/weapons to control use by force) and what feels like decreasing accountability (because the kids, because the drugs, because I said so, because I can, because of cronyism, and because wealthy people don't like hearing criticism), and since they are none the less "only human" - I don't recommend giving them more.

Granted, you are merely describing a potentially objective algorithm, but my point is that the objectivity of any given tool is moot given the human element. Guns don't kill people, people do, and will continue to do so even with checks and balances (like laws against murder; if prevention was the goal we fail daily). It is only the distribution of accountability (peer juries, private key sharing, democratic voting, citizen groups, etc) that keeps such roles in check.

Anyways, thanks for the opportunity to flesh my thoughts out more.

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#138
post #94
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because anyone trying to keep anything private or secure must be hiding something bad... No, that's not the reasoning. People that do bad things try to hide them. Therefore, a good first filter to catch bad people is to target those who hide things. They can narrow the search field afterwards.

Literally everyone hides something, its all relative. Not to mention the people that do bad things in plain sight.

> the people that do bad things in plain sight.

..aaand the ones who get "caught" and are away with a slap on the wrist before you can say "this is a joke, I just cannot believe the hipocrisy of this, double standards much?" (because let's be realistic, it's not instant)

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hopefully I'll be gone before they start going door to door. Why care about the rest of your family that will still be here to endure the rest... or the rest of us. You have no kids, right?

I don't. If you want to fight, I'll support you. I donate money to causes that I know raise my XKeyscore, and I subscribe to magazines that I know raise my XKeyscore. My long term plan is to find somewhere where this is not happening, and move there, though. If I were planning to stay here for the rest of my life, I wouldn't risk political posting on the internet, donating, or subscribing. You'll get more help for me…

Unless the first amendment has changed, there is no risk for consumers.

Re: NSA targets the privacy-conscious

#140
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... you get a arrested for having a "very high score". Considering this is PRECISELY how spam filtering works, it doesn't seem entirely irrational. Much like spam filtering, it would all come down to dialing in your filters and picking a good threshold. Hell, if the system was good enough, it could actually improve freedoms. We currently arrest many innocent people as part of the legal process (who are later exonerat…

The problem with such a filter is it will be perceived as inefficient and broken by those evaluating it if it denies an officer the authority to arrest someone he's already detained or determined to be worthy of arrest. It will be another system which grants permission at the whims of the department, one that absolves individual officers of blame, punishment and consequences for bias and abuse they'll continue to rev…

There is no reason such a filter need be an authoritative source. Arrest someone it didn't suggest, if you like. Choose not to arrest someone it did suggest. Human discretion would still be applied. But if it proved accurate, officers would trust it, and the population would get upset if it identified a criminal an officer did not arrest.

No different than a virus or spam scanner, really. I trust my scanners. Sometimes they are wrong, and I know they are, and I bypass them. But I know they are right most of the time.

You seem to have the notion though that officers do not arrest people to "catch the bad guy". It sounds like you are saying you believe most officers do not actually care if the arrestee is guilty (and will thus ignore the filter always), and merely arrest for kicks/pleasure/vengeance? I do not believe the majority are like that.

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