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Dart 1.5

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Re: Dart 1.5

#131

Post by spankalee »

amartya916 wrote: post #54
ben336 wrote: post #2

Is anybody using Dart for significant production code outside of Google? (Not mocking, genuinely curious to hear whats being done with it)

Yup. At Sendbloom.co we have used Dart to build a tool that is used by sales people to send out email campaigns. The tool is inspired by quartz composer/Max MSP's interaction paradigms (drag-and-drop visual programming). As someone else mentioned, Dart code can be fairly verbose, but it is very readable and programming with it is a joy when compared to writing vanilla javascript/jquery. I'd be happy to answer if you…

I would love to see a demo of that!

And how are you finding Dart to be verbose? In my experience it can be more concise than JS because of short lambdas, no function keyword, method cascades, real classes, the fluent Iterable and Stream interfaces.

On the other hand, I see some Dart programmers use a lot of classes and type all their variables. I'm curious what ended up being verbose for you.

Re: Dart 1.5

#132

Post by mythz »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #127
mythz wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WPF is still chugging a long strongly Your definition of strong sounds different to other peoples. There was entire FixWPF grass roots campaign to petition more investment into WPF, twitter account is at: https://twitter.com/fixwpf they also had a website and blog pleading for MS to keep investing in WPF and fix its issues. When and what was the most recent feature added to WPF? > I see no point these days writing…

> Your definition of strong sounds different to other peoples. There was entire FixWPF grass roots campaign to petition more investment into WPF, twitter account is at: https://twitter.com/fixwpf they also had a website and blog pleading for MS to keep investing in WPF and fix its issues. WPF still works very well, it is not broken. It is still one of the best UI toolkits ever constructed with a lot of flexibility th…

> WPF still works very well, it is not broken. It is still one of the best UI toolkits ever constructed

What exactly do you think the FixWPF campaign was about? And what else have you used? If it's so good, why are so few Windows desktop apps that come with Windows written with it? At least Apple uses Cocoa for all its OSX Desktop apps which I find to be of much higher quality and has smoother performance.

> People programming in emacs and VIM will eventually retire, the future is undeniable at this point.

You're making it sound most developers using text editors are old kooks with 1-foot into retirement. How disconnected are you? What % of OSS projects on GitHub do you think use an IDE? More or less than 50%? https://github.com/trending

> Dart is so far very weak on the IDE side. I wonder if the Dart team has lots of compiler people and not a lot of IDE people,

They actually have quite a few IDE people on the team with many years of experience developing IDE tooling. Any immaturity is simply that the DartEditor is still so young. It was only recently that they rewrote the old Analyzer that was previously written in Java to Dart, which now runs much faster. No doubt VS benefits from a large experienced IDE team as would JetBrains.

> I've seen huge C# projects build from a CMD prompt

Seeing something done once doesn't extrapolate itself into a common use-case or a well-supported story, which it isn't. Having to maintain your own build scripts is a slow, painful and mundane experience which is why it's a rarely considered approach. Even the just released Swift has a better command-line story than C#, which supports #! scripts, a command-line REPL and LLVM debugger.

> Citation needed, in my experience, C# kicks the JVM's butt in Win performance.

Citation is still needed. Where can this butt kicking be seen?

> Your numbers are completely whack. First, it shows mono being faster than the CLR, oh and you are using a virtual machine on top of that.

They're not my numbers, that's the actual output from the command-line Console apps which you can see on the project page. But don't take my iMac's word for it, all the source code is there, run the benchmarks yourself. Your 2 points aren't exclusive, there is no "on top of that" they were all run from my iMac, I would've run C#/.NET natively, but y'know that's hard to do when it's the only platform that doesn't work cross-platform. Running inside Parallels likely accounts for about 10-15% performance overhead, it doesn't explain 2.3x worst performance.

> As a language implementer, it is very useful.

Language VM features that are optimal for compiler writers doesn't translate itself into killer general-purpose language features for everyone else.

Re: Dart 1.5

#133

Post by sethladd »

coldtea wrote: post #128
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

If Google is even half interested in Dart (which is seems to be, since it pays for the Dart team), why doesn't it do any proper moves to push it, besides for the browser which ain't gonna fly by itself? 1) Properly package and add "batteries" for a server side version of Dart. Pay some team to write a proper and complete Rails/Django or at least Flask level framework -- and document it. 2) Make a Google version of no…

[disclaimer: I work on the Dart team.]

1) Dart VM runs on the command line and server. You can access files, directories, sockets, HTTP, Web sockets, SSL, and more. So the core functionality is all there, out of the box.

2) When people say "node.js", they usually mean at least two different things. Forgive me if I'm assuming too much, but I'll try to answer. Node.js is "javascript + v8 + server", and the equivalent for Dart is "dart + dart vm + server". So we've delivered that. Sometimes, when people say "node.js", they mean "express + v8", and Dart has "shelf + dart vm". You can check out the shelf package here: https://pub.dartlang.org/packages/shelf

3) There are a few emerging server-side frameworks out there (I mentioned shelf above). Dart VM is asynchronous, so you'll get a Node-esque experience. There aren't plans to make a fully sync server API.

4) That would be cool!

Re: Dart 1.5

#134

Post by sethladd »

adrianlmm wrote: post #122
sethladd wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the helpful feedback! The latest version of Polymer.dart removes the need for reflection at compile time, and our output is much smaller today. Curious when you last tried compiling a Polymer Dart app? [disclaimer: I work for the Dart team.]

The last time I used polymer was in Dart 1.3 I believe, then I migrated all to "dart:html" and started managing all the DOM events my self, so, I'm afraid I can't give you that information. Btw, thanks for your hard work, I really apreciate it.

Our pleasure. If you're curious, I'd recommend trying Polymer.dart again. The latest version (0.11) has a transformer that replaces the reflection code with static code. The resulting output is much smaller. :)

Re: Dart 1.5

#135

Post by seanmcdirmid »

mythz wrote: post #132
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your definition of strong sounds different to other peoples. There was entire FixWPF grass roots campaign to petition more investment into WPF, twitter account is at: https://twitter.com/fixwpf they also had a website and blog pleading for MS to keep investing in WPF and fix its issues. WPF still works very well, it is not broken. It is still one of the best UI toolkits ever constructed with a lot of flexibility th…

> WPF still works very well, it is not broken. It is still one of the best UI toolkits ever constructed What exactly do you think the FixWPF campaign was about? And what else have you used? If it's so good, why are so few Windows desktop apps that come with Windows written with it? At least Apple uses Cocoa for all its OSX Desktop apps which I find to be of much higher quality and has smoother performance. > People p…

> And what else have you used? If it's so good, why are so few Windows desktop apps that come with Windows written with it? At least Apple uses Cocoa for all its OSX Desktop apps which I find to be of much higher quality and smoother performance.

WPF is used for Visual Studio, and that is from VS 2010 on. WPF is used for a lot of stuff internally, its not like people are still breaking out WinForms or GDI. And then there is WP and WinRT, which are WPF derivatives.

> You're making it sound most developers using text editors are old kooks with 1-foot into retirement. How disconnected are you? What % of OSS projects on GitHub do you think use an IDE? More or less than 50%? https://github.com/trending

GitHUB isn't even a small percentage of all developers, it only represents public OSS projects. There is lots of value in a good IDE, language designers and implementors who treat it as a second class concerns are going to pay the price in popularity eventually.

> They actually have quite a few IDE people on the team with many years of experience developing IDE tooling. Any immaturity is simply that the DartEditor is still so young.

That isn't what I've heard. Anyways...Eclipse...wow...I don't see anything good coming out of that.

> It was only recently that they rewrote the old Analyzer that was previously written in Java to Dart, which now runs much faster.

Fast tools mean nothing if the UX is crap. Also, incremental performance is quite different from batch performance that you expect from the command line.

> Running inside Parallels likely accounts for about 10-15% performance overhead, it doesn't explain 2.3x worst performance.

In general, I've seen the CLR beat Mono anywhere from 1.5 to 3X. So if Mono is coming up faster than the CLR, something is probably seriously off.

> Language VM features that are optimal for compiler writers doesn't translate itself into killer general-purpose language features.

Right. But it does give you lots of options in one's managed time live programming language.

Re: Dart 1.5

#137

Post by sethladd »

sethladd wrote: post #136
shakethemonkey wrote: post #126

It would give me greater confidence if the first Dart example[1] on the official Dart website did not point to a 404 Not Found. [1] https://www.dartlang.org/samples/

Yikes! Not good. I just opened: https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=19708

I fixed our repo. The next time we push the site, it should be fixed. Thanks for the report!

Re: Dart 1.5

#139

Post by kevingadd »

azakai wrote: post #81
mraleph wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a question to consider: can the web where you can't efficiently[1] implement any dynamic language with a semantics different from JavaScript be called truly open? [1] I am well aware about different attempts to attack this issue from various angles from AOT to JIT generating JS code but no attempt currently produces truly efficient solution that demonstrates small footprint and consistent high performance on…

First, you're using "open" in a way I haven't heard before (not in the context of "open web"). Not saying it's wrong :) Perhaps we should use it that way too. But you're suggesting a new perspective here. We could debate that first, before debating the technical stuff. Or perhaps we could call it "technologically open." But to focus on the more interesting technical stuff: First, we have a fast Lua VM port. Not LuaJI…

It's my understanding that Shumway is basically a full-scale AS2/AS3 VM & JIT using JS as the codegen target, is that wrong?

JSIL is increasingly a JIT that targets JS instead of an offline JS compiler, if only because JS runtimes are so terrible at optimizing C# code and semantics. Eventually it may end up being like Dalvik, where the offline compiler runs a filtering/transform pass on the input bytecode and all the actual codegen happens on the client.

Hard to be sure, as you pointed out it's hard to do serious CS research like this as one person in your spare time :-)

Re: Dart 1.5

#140

Post by mythz »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #135
mythz wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WPF still works very well, it is not broken. It is still one of the best UI toolkits ever constructed What exactly do you think the FixWPF campaign was about? And what else have you used? If it's so good, why are so few Windows desktop apps that come with Windows written with it? At least Apple uses Cocoa for all its OSX Desktop apps which I find to be of much higher quality and has smoother performance. > People p…

> And what else have you used? If it's so good, why are so few Windows desktop apps that come with Windows written with it? At least Apple uses Cocoa for all its OSX Desktop apps which I find to be of much higher quality and smoother performance. WPF is used for Visual Studio, and that is from VS 2010 on. WPF is used for a lot of stuff internally, its not like people are still breaking out WinForms or GDI. And then t…

> WPF is used for Visual Studio, and that is from VS 2010 on. WPF is used for a lot of stuff internally

So neither that ships with Windows then?

> its not like people are still breaking out WinForms or GDI.

Do you think they've been overrun by developers breaking out WPF? Even when MS is trying to push everyone into creating WindowsStore apps? I hardly ever see any mainstream desktop apps written in WPF. What are some of the most popular WPF apps developed outside of Microsoft?

> WP and WinRT, which are WPF derivatives

How can WinRT be a derivative of WPF if it's written in C++? What WPF code-base did they derive from?

> GitHUB isn't even a small percentage of all developers,

So what does show a good measure of overall developers that shows the slow death of languages/devs without IDE's?

> There is lots of value in a good IDE

There's also lots of value in small, wrist-friendly languages that don't need an IDE and have a good story for text-editors / command-line. You may want to check out what the dev story is for Clojure / Go / Node which support live-reloading / auto-running of modified tests and fast dev iteration times without IDE's.

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